DISQUS

Joe Brummer · 3 years ago

Randy, You are a good man. My respect for you grows all the time. I have learned so much from you and hope we continue to learn from each other. This is a great post and yes, even when we disagree, some "gay identified" people do love you. Love is what makes a beloved community and that is the goal.

I am happy to see others, especially those on the opposing side of many gay rights confronting the hate around us. Every step towards the beloved community MLK spoke about in his life, is as step towards justice. bravo, my friend, bravo....

Dan Gonzales · 3 years ago

Darn skippy! Love ya Randy.

Randy · 3 years ago

::: roll eyes ::: I am just doing what I feel is the right thing to do. I have no sense of joy and certainly don't need bravo's and Dan G. skipping for joy.

I *hear* you both and don't want to minimize your input. Love back at ya', for real.

At the same time the only thing that would bring me the greatest peace would be for DL to apologize to Wayne. I love my brother in Christ and hate that there is public division over this issue.

Steve Schalchlin · 3 years ago

Randy, your letter was honest and mature. Now I'm going to have to start liking you again. :-)

kevin · 3 years ago

Hey Randy--great response. Instead of it being evidence that the world is coming to an end, maybe all this dialogue shows that the world is coming a bit closer together! :) :)

Steve Boese · 3 years ago

I appreciate that, Randy...

I'm trying catch up on a bunch of stuff, and didn't read all of your note, but more importantly I gotta admit that I'm doing everything in my power to ignore folks who seem to be determined to fill the broad gap between reasonable ex-gays and that guy from Topeka whose name I don't want to mention, either!

On a personal note, though, you'll get a kick out of this: Mike caught up yesterday on the post-LWO comments between us. I knew because I heard an exaggerated groan from his office first, followed by, "What... Are you and Randy dating?"

Randy · 3 years ago

Steve S. - ::: melodramatic gasp ::: My life is now complete with your potentially liking me again! ::: again with the rolling of the eyes :::

After sleeping on it, I actually think I was to harsh in a couple of places with DL. For that I apologize. I shouldn't have said the thing about prophetic and pathetic or accuse him of being prideful. I don't know his heart. I now wish that I would have said the same things in a less harsh tone.

Kevin - I don't want to minimize your optimism but let's not forget... Wayne is still Wayne and he does outlandish stunts too. He is one of my opponents and one that I unfortunately can't say is my friend at present. There is a lot of history there.

While personal friendships are possible with you all, I have a feeling that I won't leave you feeling comfortable long. Homosexuality aside, I hope to compel you to the Prince of Peace, Christ Himself. I have never had and still have no hidden motives.

But there are motives. :)

Steve B - Mike, if you are reading this ... rest assured, I have been off the "gay" market for fourteen years and don't have any plans to go back. I am glad Steve can see that there is more to me than being an opponent.

Alan Chambers · 3 years ago

This thread reads like a page out of a 1998 Bridges Across dialogue....I am glad that when it all boils down that we are all still people who care about people first and activists somewhere down the list.

By the way, Steve B, I wish I had known that was YOU when we met face to face on Saturday. I thought you were just another Steve...not "the Steve B".

Glad you were at LWO and that you felt welcomed.

kevin · 3 years ago

Hey Randy. You burst my bubble just a bit this morning. :( I don't know Wayne Besen, nor do I read his blog or webpage or whatever else he has (although I might start now). Nor do I know the history that sits behind all of this.

I know you 'won't leave me comfortable for long' but yet I keep coming back. I know what your motivation is (well, as much as I can know) and now that we are being honest and open, one motivation for me coming back is to try and convince you that being gay isn't a bad thing at all. I am happy, comfortable and proud to to be a well-adjusted adult despite what I hear in the media about my 'lifestyle.'
Of course, another motivation is that I do like to be the gadfly occasionally when I think it would be helpful. :)
About bringing me to Christ--I can really and truly appreciate that. Being an historian of the early church and knowing what I do, I just can't bring myself to it. Some can, I can't. But I do love the religion of Christianity--after all, I did my M.A. in Biblical Languages at a Christian seminary instead of going to a secular university. The people I met there were just amazing and it was one of the best times in my life for education and making good friends. And I did just spend five years of my life working on my PhD in early Christian history.
And speaking of being a gadfly--Foster's post on Besen was pathetic, and his refusal to apologize and to do the opposite is prideful. And we all know that pride comes before the fall...

Stacy L. Harp · 3 years ago

I must be very dense, (hold all the comments on that)because when I read D.L.'s post and saw the mustaches on Michael Jackson and the others I thought it was funny, and the Hitler comparison was totally lost on me. I even had someone unsubscribe to the persecution blog because they felt that I was endorsing this whole thing, which is ironic because I just thought the pictures were funny. I guess I should read into everything more deeply from now on, or I could just remain naive and laugh at pictures I thought were and still are funny.

NOT that I'm saying anything about Hitler is funny, because obviously I'm not. I had a stepfather who served under the man,and I saw how it impacted him.

But I do think mustaches on men who you normally wouldn't see a mustache on is funny. I guess I might need to get more serious and lose my funny bone.

Randy · 3 years ago

I certainly don't want to burst bubbles or have people consider amputating their funny bone.

I would just rather have the "hope" bubble form in the atmosphere of reality and for funny bones to only be one metaphor in a sea of metaphors :) we rely on for support throughout our relational lives.

I can't relate to Stacy's finding humor in this particular situation but I don't want anyone to feel that this issue (homosexuality in general) can't handle some levity.

Heck, I am not gay or grumpy :). Well, ok, today I am a little grumpy ... but still not gay. :)

Jonathan · 3 years ago

Randy:

Thanks for taking the time to respond to Reverend Foster regarding this issue. Christians have, in my opinion, a clarion call from the Father to treat others, no matter our level of disagreement, with respect and in fact love. Matthew 5:44 from The Message says - "I'm telling you to love your enemies. Let them bring out the best in you, not the worst. When someone gives you a hard time, respond with the energies of prayer,"

I wonder sometimes if we don't get so caught up in this "us-against-them" drama - winning the war of public opinion or whatever - that we forget that as Christians we are held to a higher standard of love.

I was recently interacting with DL on another site regarding the words of Gandhi who said "I like your Christ. I don't like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." I mentioned that those words should serve as a warning to we Christians because we are the only Jesus some will ever see and if they can't get past our actions to see Christ then we've failed in our mission.

In grace,

j.

Randy · 3 years ago

Thank you Jonathan for your thoughts. I agree.

Stacy L. Harp · 3 years ago

Actually I want you to note Randy that I am not commenting on the text of what DL wrote because I dont' feel a need to do that. But I thought the pictures were funny, especially of Michael Jackson...I've never seen that guy with a mustache, or Tucker Carlson etc...I just thought it was funny... and I think DL made a point about how Wayne marked up the Love Won out book - maybe it's because I deal with intensity too much in my life, but to me, this whole thing is being blown way out of proportion.

The great thing about the blogosphere is that we all have freedom of speech, and yet it never ceases to amaze me how many people try to silence those they disagree with. Read my latest post and you'll see what I mean. Anyway...that's it from me.

Randy · 3 years ago

... and having learned lessons the hard way over and over and right now ...

If you purpose to have a public blog, you deserve any and all feedback that comes your way.

Free speech never transcends the need for personal responsibility.

Kurt Wayne · 3 years ago

Randy,

Last week, I think, I apologized for a comparison I made between al-Zarqawi and pro-gay leaders.

The "leader" I was thinking of was Mr. Besen. He had outlined his new organizations plan with this belief...that if it was successful, it would "strengthen families".

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At the time, I let my emotions get to me when I made that post on your al-Zarqawi thread. Mr. Besen doesn't want to fly airplanes into buildings, behead people, explode "dirty bombs", etc.

He's just, IMO, a very misguided individual. And I hope to be as gracious as you any time he practices his right to free speech (and God bless our country in that he can say these things...though he professes to believe that Muslim nations are hostile to minorities including GLBT ones, sometimes I wonder if he indeed realizes how well we really have it here in America)...

Randy · 3 years ago

Well... I don't know if he is grateful or not. I don't really listen to his public one liners and spin. I especially don't listen when he is yelling :). I do listen to the stories that seem to gravitate toward him though. Sometimes there are legitimate concerns that I do consider and ask questions about even though I have no desire to make my follow up into a public spectacle.

Their reality (ex-ex-gays) is their experience. They do not negate mine or reframe my beliefs in any way but I want to hear what they have to say. That doesn't mean I will let them walk all over my life and be rude. But most aren't rude and just as I want to be heard I pray to be able to listen.

... and again, I listen best in private conversation when it comes to those issues.

I think there are a few people in those activist realms who think that if they are not involved nothing happens. A lot of things happen: conversations, accountability ... research ... a lot of things that we have no desire to make into a public spectacle.

Every once in a while constructive feedback comes down the pike and it is considered. Usually a private email or phone call. Most of the time it, the public stuff, is spun into some sort of infotainment blog fodder that are wrapped in rhetorical double bind questions that I just honestly don't have time for.

In that circumstance, you give an inch, most want a mile. Just watch, the next time some ex-gay leader says something weird and I don't say something, I will get in trouble for it and called hypocritical or something. I am sure someone out there is already saying that I didn't do enough in this situation. I have learned that with some gay activists you can't win for losing and everything is something for them to yell about ... so just do what you gotta' do. :)

And even then I usually can see their character strengths in spite of it all. The Lord is faithful to help me experience His love for them. And that's not just some Sunday school answer, I sense His presence touch my heart when I stop to consider them from His perspective. He is passionate for them just as He is passionate for anyone.

The best bridges I have found are built with people not interested in preaching to the choir or getting credit for talking to the other side. Public figures, fine, but if you can't meet in a spirit of humble transparency and unconditional friendship, it usually doesn't go very far.

Talk about thread drift. I am very tired, had a workout that just absolutely kicked me to the curb. I ramble when I am tired :).

Steve Schalchlin · 3 years ago

One of the aspects I enjoyed about Bridges Across, when it was lively, was that we encouraged the people one each side to police their OWN side when it got out of hand, rather than just always criticizing the "other" side. It takes guts to criticize your own side because your own words will be used as fodder by your opponents, and because, as you said, when you DON'T criticize people on your side later, you get flak. People are always looking for a suspicious motive. But when you put yourself squarely into the moral war, you end up getting shot.

Randy · 3 years ago

"...when you put yourself squarely into the moral war, you end up getting shot."

That assumes a lot of power.

The following is in reference to militant gay identified activists who are rare but easily seen. It is not in reference to the majority of people who identify as gay and many of whom don't agree with the activists.

It's bizarre to me that the gay activist side thinks they know who we as individuals are, our motivations, what we *should* do and be doing. They line us up in their sights and assume they know us better than us. Then berate us personally, by name, for not living up to their expectations or "proving" ourselves to them in a manner that they find acceptable (and it is never acceptable, there is always some failed benchmark.) This attitude assumes a lot of power over us that simply doesn't exist. They appear to have a one way perception assuming that the other side is impacted.

We are free and making independent choices in whatever pursuits of happiness we want. This is usually where narrowly focussed folks insert their pet issues of where they are hindered and I am not. Remember I mentioned the never-achieved benchmark earlier.

... I think for most gay activists, who make better money than I do, live with whoever, have sex and/or romance with whoever, work at, worship wherever they want, they just want more opportunities to fight against us instead of working for their issues (for whatever reason.) The two are not always synonymous, I am sure Besen thinks that attacking us is working for his issue but ... I don't do what I do to attack a person or group. I work toward issues I am passionate about, most of which are not public issues. But for some reason the public ones convince my opponents that somehow my only goal in life is to oppose them. It's not true.

Simply, I am here, I am not gay (anymore) whether anyone else gets used to it or not. They can take all the personal pot-shots they want. Insults and mischaracterizations have no power. I think people attach being insulted as some sort of martyrish badge. I used too (past tense). That is immature to me. Mature people can put insult in it's proper place (sometimes involving the delete key :) ) and move on. However, more and more people are using insult to justify being irreconcilable.

They are ornery and like it that way. It's a negative form of personally perceived empowerment.

They are going to be irreconcilable until you shape up (agree with them) or shut up. Even then there will probably be some other thing to focus anger on. There will always be that benchmark of failure unless I renounce my beliefs and adopt theirs. So I opt to do what I need to do and try to take personal responsibility while living and abiding in Christ.

I do believe in the power of a person to self-determine the course of their lives in accordance to what I believe is God's will ... or they can choose not too and live according to whatever they want. He's the one that granted them free will and the One each of us will stand before ... not me. That assumes a lot of power (based on the Bible) too but the difference is that I won't legalistically pick apart every move someone makes and derive energy from picking a fight with a particular person. AND I will also have to face the Creator for how I have lived my life. Christ's atonement is done for me but when I see Him face to face I have no doubt there will be some serious debriefing :). He's too good and just to not want to help me learn from life, even in the afterlife. (Disclaimer: I am not a theologian, this is just what I feel after knowing Him for the time I have.)

I would never seek to destroy a person's character or bring down their organization.