Excellent post! You've really helped pepper my frustration and anger toward Mr.Besen with some amusement! Very, very good! Ha! The more I think about it, the funnier the caricature is!
David Benkof
· 1 year ago
I'd be happy to talk to you some time; feel free to E-mail me. I don't really know much about you, though. I must say that hearing you say you see Wayne (who's Jewish) "as our Saul who will soon be our Paul" is not cute, not clever, and not a promising start for any friendship or working relationship we may someday have. I have a good friend who's fighting over in Fallujah who's a devout evangelical Christian. I know he thinks I'm going to Hell, and that he would like to see me convert to Christianity. But he doesn't ever suggest it or tease me about it or drop hints. He's far too classy than that. If you can't handle yourself the way he does, then it's probably best you don't contact me. If you can, we could probably have some interesting conversations.
Randy
· 1 year ago
@Greg - well, I don't want to reduce Wayne to a caricature. We are ultimately dealing with some very serious issues. But I do want to tone it down a notch because I genuinely "get along" with him in person and don't hate him.
@David - I was actually being serious. When I pray for Wayne I truly want him to experience the transforming work of Christ just like the Apostle Paul (whose original name was Saul) did. I wasn't trying to be cute ... maybe clever ... but it was honest and good natured. He never told me it offended his Jewish sensibilities. If it did or does I would apologize but still be forthright that I am praying for him to have a similar experience as Paul.
I am sorry it offended you but classy or not, I want you to have a similar experience as well.
Wayne has always been able to handle the little bit of "teasing" I have extended his way, and I don't think anyone who really knows me thinks that I have the patience to "drop hints." I am pretty straight forward (no clever or cute pun intended.)
Please forgive my class-lessness. I won't offend you with a personal email ... however if you can handle someone who might offend you from time to time ... feel free to call or email any time.
well, there ya' go. Thanks for chiming in.
David Benkof
· 1 year ago
I work with lots of people I disagree with on many issues all the time. But I don't work with people who think their antisemitism is "clever."
It's amazing that there are still many Orthodox Jews who think "ex-gays" and JONAH "healing advocates" actually support Jewish values. I promise you very few Orthodox Jews will think that when I'm through exposing how anti-Torah your movement is. Pathetic.
To be clear: I have no interest in knowing you. Thanks for not contacting me.
Randy
· 1 year ago
wow. Now that was somethin'!
I actually talked to an orthodox Jewish friend of mine today and asked him to be very frank with me about my statements in the above post. I thought your reaction was melodramatic but I wanted to make sure that I wasn't being culturally insensitive.
He basically said that your reaction was indicative of someone who is insecure in who they are and what they believe in. Some Jews might be offended by me saying that but most of the few who take offense would understand that it is said without malice and move on. It's not anti-semitic. I have nothing but affection for Jewish people and respect their free will right to believe whatever they want on religious matters. I even came out publicly rebuking someone who compared Besen to Hitler and vandalized one of his pictures to reflect such.
Everyone knows that Christians would hope people would come into a relationship with Christ. Your breathless charge of antisemitism is ridiculous.
Wayne accused you basically of being a self-absorbed opportunist. Your attempts to turn this into something about yourself tends to lend to that observation.
If Wayne is upset about what I said, I even wonder if he remembers, he can tell me and I will apologize but still stick by the fact that I would want anyone not in relationship with Christ to come to relationship with Him.
I apologized to you but apparently that isn't enough.
So, go have fun in your part of the playground. My door is always open but please leave the chip on your shoulder out on the curb if you do ever decide to come back around.
David Benkof
· 1 year ago
Yeah you have an Orthodox Jewish friend, but he doesn't have a name. Riiiight.
I think it's funny that you think the antisemites should be the ones deciding what is or is not antisemitism. At least 75% of antisemites in history, including some of the worst, were convinced they weren't antisemitic.
I specifically told you I was not interested in your recruiting me for Christianity. But you just couldn't help yourself: "I want you to have a similar experience" as Paul, a Jew who "converted" to Christianity.
You apologized three sentences after you insulted me in precisely the way I told you would not be welcome. If I make a crack about throwing you to the lions, and then apologize three sentences later, does that mean I haven't said anything anti-Christian?
After all the things your people have done to my people, I think respecting a Jew's direct request that you not push christ (yemach shmo) in his face is the least you could do.
Especially when the Jew in question could be a great ally of yours, particularly given the inroads he has with audiences that will never, ever listen to you. It's your loss.
Randy
· 1 year ago
again ... wow. Christians didn't throw Paul to the lions or force him to convert, He actually met the glorified Christ ... but nevermind already ... shees.
... if "your" audience acts up like you are I think I would rather hang out with Wayne and his friends. I'd rather have an up front sworn enemy than whatever kind of mayhem you seem to want to generate.
Wait a minute ... did I just say I'd rather hang out with Wayne? Oh.the.irony.
k ... all done with this. Be blessed in whatever manner agrees with you.
Greg P.
· 1 year ago
On the contrary, I absolutely do not think you hate Mr.Besen. I realize I inappropriately used the word "caricature" and my "anger" and "frustration" is directed at his methods not his person... sorry. I really do check for the right words to communicate the correct intent of my comments. This post actually spoke volumes to me personally, because I do tend to take myself and others too seriously... to the point anger (the unproductive kind) and frustration resulting in unproductive dialog.
Randy
· 1 year ago
Greg, ::: big smile ::: I wasn't thinking you thought I hate Wayne, I just wanted to clarify. I was reluctant to post the post because I didn't want people to think that I only see him as a cartoonish character. My response to you was more of an opportunity to make that clarification. It wasn't in any way an attempt to correct you...just expand my thoughts.
I am very grateful that the post meant a lot to you and you were willing to comment.
Greg P.
· 1 year ago
I really think blogs are a great tool. But they are very frustrating to this nearly 50 yr.old because you can't readily denote vocal inflexion in what you type. I guess keeping comments short, sweet and to the point is the key? Oh, God help me(humor)!
Randy
· 1 year ago
Well you hang in there Greg, you are doing great! In my own experience there is a learning curve with every blog with regard to interacting with the community there. You eventually learn each others writing style and quirks. It's worth it :).
Very glad you are here. :)
Randy
· 1 year ago
and by quirks I mean ... you might eventually catch on to mine :)
Excellent post! You've really helped pepper my frustration and anger toward Mr.Besen with some amusement! Very, very good! Ha! The more I think about it, the funnier the caricature is!
David Benkof
· 1 year ago
I'd be happy to talk to you some time; feel free to E-mail me. I don't really know much about you, though. I must say that hearing you say you see Wayne (who's Jewish) "as our Saul who will soon be our Paul" is not cute, not clever, and not a promising start for any friendship or working relationship we may someday have. I have a good friend who's fighting over in Fallujah who's a devout evangelical Christian. I know he thinks I'm going to Hell, and that he would like to see me convert to Christianity. But he doesn't ever suggest it or tease me about it or drop hints. He's far too classy than that. If you can't handle yourself the way he does, then it's probably best you don't contact me. If you can, we could probably have some interesting conversations.
Randy
· 1 year ago
@Greg - well, I don't want to reduce Wayne to a caricature. We are ultimately dealing with some very serious issues. But I do want to tone it down a notch because I genuinely "get along" with him in person and don't hate him. @David - I was actually being serious. When I pray for Wayne I truly want him to experience the transforming work of Christ just like the Apostle Paul (whose original name was Saul) did. I wasn't trying to be cute ... maybe clever ... but it was honest and good natured. He never told me it offended his Jewish sensibilities. If it did or does I would apologize but still be forthright that I am praying for him to have a similar experience as Paul. I am sorry it offended you but classy or not, I want you to have a similar experience as well. Wayne has always been able to handle the little bit of "teasing" I have extended his way, and I don't think anyone who really knows me thinks that I have the patience to "drop hints." I am pretty straight forward (no clever or cute pun intended.) Please forgive my class-lessness. I won't offend you with a personal email ... however if you can handle someone who might offend you from time to time ... feel free to call or email any time. well, there ya' go. Thanks for chiming in.
I have also written Randy's boss - who I've been in contact with and happen to like - to complain about the disrespect he shows people of other faiths, and to ask if his organization and/or his religion endorses his conduct.
David Benkof
· 1 year ago
I work with lots of people I disagree with on many issues all the time. But I don't work with people who think their antisemitism is "clever." It's amazing that there are still many Orthodox Jews who think "ex-gays" and JONAH "healing advocates" actually support Jewish values. I promise you very few Orthodox Jews will think that when I'm through exposing how anti-Torah your movement is. Pathetic. To be clear: I have no interest in knowing you. Thanks for not contacting me.
Randy
· 1 year ago
wow. Now that was somethin'! I actually talked to an orthodox Jewish friend of mine today and asked him to be very frank with me about my statements in the above post. I thought your reaction was melodramatic but I wanted to make sure that I wasn't being culturally insensitive. He basically said that your reaction was indicative of someone who is insecure in who they are and what they believe in. Some Jews might be offended by me saying that but most of the few who take offense would understand that it is said without malice and move on. It's not anti-semitic. I have nothing but affection for Jewish people and respect their free will right to believe whatever they want on religious matters. I even came out publicly rebuking someone who compared Besen to Hitler and vandalized one of his pictures to reflect such. Everyone knows that Christians would hope people would come into a relationship with Christ. Your breathless charge of antisemitism is ridiculous. Wayne accused you basically of being a self-absorbed opportunist. Your attempts to turn this into something about yourself tends to lend to that observation. If Wayne is upset about what I said, I even wonder if he remembers, he can tell me and I will apologize but still stick by the fact that I would want anyone not in relationship with Christ to come to relationship with Him. I apologized to you but apparently that isn't enough. So, go have fun in your part of the playground. My door is always open but please leave the chip on your shoulder out on the curb if you do ever decide to come back around.
David Benkof
· 1 year ago
Yeah you have an Orthodox Jewish friend, but he doesn't have a name. Riiiight. I think it's funny that you think the antisemites should be the ones deciding what is or is not antisemitism. At least 75% of antisemites in history, including some of the worst, were convinced they weren't antisemitic. I specifically told you I was not interested in your recruiting me for Christianity. But you just couldn't help yourself: "I want you to have a similar experience" as Paul, a Jew who "converted" to Christianity. You apologized three sentences after you insulted me in precisely the way I told you would not be welcome. If I make a crack about throwing you to the lions, and then apologize three sentences later, does that mean I haven't said anything anti-Christian? After all the things your people have done to my people, I think respecting a Jew's direct request that you not push christ (yemach shmo) in his face is the least you could do. Especially when the Jew in question could be a great ally of yours, particularly given the inroads he has with audiences that will never, ever listen to you. It's your loss.
Randy
· 1 year ago
again ... wow. Christians didn't throw Paul to the lions or force him to convert, He actually met the glorified Christ ... but nevermind already ... shees. ... if "your" audience acts up like you are I think I would rather hang out with Wayne and his friends. I'd rather have an up front sworn enemy than whatever kind of mayhem you seem to want to generate. Wait a minute ... did I just say I'd rather hang out with Wayne? Oh.the.irony. k ... all done with this. Be blessed in whatever manner agrees with you.
Greg P.
· 1 year ago
On the contrary, I absolutely do not think you hate Mr.Besen. I realize I inappropriately used the word "caricature" and my "anger" and "frustration" is directed at his methods not his person... sorry. I really do check for the right words to communicate the correct intent of my comments. This post actually spoke volumes to me personally, because I do tend to take myself and others too seriously... to the point anger (the unproductive kind) and frustration resulting in unproductive dialog.
Randy
· 1 year ago
Greg, ::: big smile ::: I wasn't thinking you thought I hate Wayne, I just wanted to clarify. I was reluctant to post the post because I didn't want people to think that I only see him as a cartoonish character. My response to you was more of an opportunity to make that clarification. It wasn't in any way an attempt to correct you...just expand my thoughts. I am very grateful that the post meant a lot to you and you were willing to comment.
Greg P.
· 1 year ago
I really think blogs are a great tool. But they are very frustrating to this nearly 50 yr.old because you can't readily denote vocal inflexion in what you type. I guess keeping comments short, sweet and to the point is the key? Oh, God help me(humor)!
Randy
· 1 year ago
Well you hang in there Greg, you are doing great! In my own experience there is a learning curve with every blog with regard to interacting with the community there. You eventually learn each others writing style and quirks. It's worth it :). Very glad you are here. :)
Randy
· 1 year ago
and by quirks I mean ... you might eventually catch on to mine :)
::: shrug ::: I don't know what else to do except try to get back to the point of the original post.
Wayne is nice in person.
Emily K
· 1 year ago
Randy,
I make a point never to comment on your blog. My instinct tells me that most of my comments would probably never get past the editing floor. HOWEVER: I am commenting now in a sort of alliance with you, and to strongly encourage you not to "feed the troll." You seem to have decided this. Good. Benkof can write what he wants, but his "allies" on both sides seem to be disgusted with his motives and actions. I suspect he will quickly lose them all.
permit me to explain something: I don't care if you have an orthodox Jewish friend or a hundred orthodox Jewish friends; the fact is that the push to convert Jews to Christianity at the threat of death (living or spiritual) has caused tension and hostility between the two peoples that in my personal belief will never be reconciled because of simple theological differences. Many, including myself, believe that the anti-semitism so pervasive in Europe up until the Holocaust was caused by Christian hostility to Judaism as laid out in the Christian scriptures and commanded from the pulpit - Catholic and Protestant. So I fully understand Benkof's reaction.
BUT: His reaction is slightly dramatic and even immature. A Jew reacting in this way is exactly what many Christians expect and have expected for 2000 years: That when the "love of the gospel" is shared with a Jew, he recoils and becomes hostile- presumably, not because he wants to be left alone, but because he does not know what "true" spiritual love is. Similar things happened when Gibson's Passion hit theatres. Not all Jews reacted as Abe Foxman did. I personally am happy with someone thinking I'm going to hell. I know it's a difference of theology. This belief is your theology and shouldn't be confused with bigotry or anti-semitism. The truest term would be "anti-Judaic." This refers to being opposed to Jewish theology. This is not the same thing as being opposed to Jews, Jewish culture, or Israel.
Out of a thousand things we disagree on, here's one we agree on, that Benkof should be ignored.
Randy
· 1 year ago
Emily, first I am very glad you posted ... the lights are coming on for me. You reaffirmed what my friend said yesterday but helped my mind turn a corner. I have three responses two for you and one for David.
Christian/Jewish History I seriously didn't even think about all of that before saying what I said. I would *never* try to force conversion or death. I don't believe in that at all. I view the Crusades, the Holocaust and other horrifying events against the Jewish people blasphemy.
I love Christ with my whole being because of the many wonderful things He has done and meant to me. It's not dogma or anti-semitism, it's not even the fear of hell for that matter, that compels me to make such statements. I genuinely want others to experience the joy I have in relationship with Christ. Nothing malicious. If you agree great! If not ...ok. What else can we talk about? <-- That's my approach. Nothing hateful.
How would you suggest I convey that message? I want to honor your free will but I don't want to be dishonest about what's in my heart? I think it is dishonest for me to not say it if that is what I believe. What do you think?
Your comments
You are probably right about many of your comments hitting the editing floor. You and I haven't had a good history of dialog. While I would like that to change, you should know that I read every single comment (submitted here) and am always looking for ways to engage in fruitful conversation. You know that I won't allow promotion of one of the blogs you write for ... ever ... but I am glad you commented because I think it is helping me to understand the dynamic of what is happening a little better. I am trying to think through how to do this differently in the future.
Third Response is to David
It appears you are trying to make this as big a public spectacle as possible. I am not allowing any more of your comments regarding this to be published on this blog. You can try to get me fired all you want on your own blog. David, I know what Alan has said in response to you and you are more than welcome to give me a call or email me (through the contact form link above) your number and a time to call and I will call you if you'd like.
David Benkof
· 1 year ago
I just wanted everyone to know I've blogged about Randy's behavior: http://www.gaysdefendmarriage.com/?p=56 I have also written Randy's boss - who I've been in contact with and happen to like - to complain about the disrespect he shows people of other faiths, and to ask if his organization and/or his religion endorses his conduct.
Mike Turner
· 1 year ago
Wooooww!!! The most frustrating thing about trying to have a conversation with someone who disagrees is when they are nothing less than hell-bent on starting a fight.
If Christians, Jews, and Muslims would all just agree to respectfully discuss the issues till the end of time, INSTEAD OF FIGHTING ABOUT IT, then I think the discussions would actually get somewhere.
Great job, Randy, for identifying the 'fight bait'. People who approach issues like that should never be given a platform, no matter WHAT their take is on the issue.
Another thought: A debate can either be like atonal music, or discord. But only one is actually music, able to be enjoyed by many.
Mike
· 1 year ago
I think people don't understand the Christian perspective on Christ (in a lot of ways), but pertaining to Jews I really don't think our aim is to 'convert.' After all, the way I understand it, Christ is for the Jews--before non-Jews even (Romans Chapter 1). The New Testament talks about Him being the fulfillment of all that God promised in His thousands-years courtship of the nation of Israel.
Anyways, that's just how I look at it.
For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us. (Eph. 2:14)
ChaplainChas
· 1 year ago
I am reminded of a conversation I had with friends after watching "for the bible tells me so" when I stated that "we wrestle not against flesh and blood..." Ephesians 6:12. (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Eph/Eph006.h...)
i don't really have a lot of time to answer your question, which is extremely complex. You will never be able to "share the Messiah" with Jews without causing us some sort of tension to occur even a little bit.
I will say that one way to "share the gospel" is just to live as a Christian. Help the poor, be kind, tell the truth, etc...I'd give the same advice to someone trying to live as a Muslim, and I try to follow the same advice myself. Even the surliest anti-religious person can't get upset at a devout person of faith when they seem them performing a pure act. What's to object to?
I recommend the following website to understand better what the concept of The Messiah means to Judaism: www.outreachjudaism.org. Specifically, the Question/Answer section where the Rabbi answers questions people submit maybe be of particular help: http://www.outreachjudaism.org/questions.html
There will be some answers you will virulently disagree with. However, in terms of understanding the cold, plain theology behind Jewish belief, I don't think you can do much better than this particular webpage. Plus, I'm definitely not referring you there to try to convince you of anything or to get you to "see" that your religion is "false." And I doubt that you're that insecure religiously to believe so anyway.
Mike Turner
· 1 year ago
Emily: Wow! Now that's what I call being closer to Atonal as opposed to having discord. I am humbled and thrilled by your response at the same time.
There's still hope! :)
Randy
· 1 year ago
::: shrug ::: I don't know what else to do except try to get back to the point of the original post. Wayne is nice in person.
Emily K
· 1 year ago
Randy, I make a point never to comment on your blog. My instinct tells me that most of my comments would probably never get past the editing floor. HOWEVER: I am commenting now in a sort of alliance with you, and to strongly encourage you not to "feed the troll." You seem to have decided this. Good. Benkof can write what he wants, but his "allies" on both sides seem to be disgusted with his motives and actions. I suspect he will quickly lose them all. permit me to explain something: I don't care if you have an orthodox Jewish friend or a hundred orthodox Jewish friends; the fact is that the push to convert Jews to Christianity at the threat of death (living or spiritual) has caused tension and hostility between the two peoples that in my personal belief will never be reconciled because of simple theological differences. Many, including myself, believe that the anti-semitism so pervasive in Europe up until the Holocaust was caused by Christian hostility to Judaism as laid out in the Christian scriptures and commanded from the pulpit - Catholic and Protestant. So I fully understand Benkof's reaction. BUT: His reaction is slightly dramatic and even immature. A Jew reacting in this way is exactly what many Christians expect and have expected for 2000 years: That when the "love of the gospel" is shared with a Jew, he recoils and becomes hostile- presumably, not because he wants to be left alone, but because he does not know what "true" spiritual love is. Similar things happened when Gibson's Passion hit theatres. Not all Jews reacted as Abe Foxman did. I personally am happy with someone thinking I'm going to hell. I know it's a difference of theology. This belief is your theology and shouldn't be confused with bigotry or anti-semitism. The truest term would be "anti-Judaic." This refers to being opposed to Jewish theology. This is not the same thing as being opposed to Jews, Jewish culture, or Israel. Out of a thousand things we disagree on, here's one we agree on, that Benkof should be ignored.
Randy
· 1 year ago
Emily, first I am very glad you posted ... the lights are coming on for me. You reaffirmed what my friend said yesterday but helped my mind turn a corner. I have three responses two for you and one for David. Christian/Jewish History I seriously didn't even think about all of that before saying what I said. I would *never* try to force conversion or death. I don't believe in that at all. I view the Crusades, the Holocaust and other horrifying events against the Jewish people blasphemy. I love Christ with my whole being because of the many wonderful things He has done and meant to me. It's not dogma or anti-semitism, it's not even the fear of hell for that matter, that compels me to make such statements. I genuinely want others to experience the joy I have in relationship with Christ. Nothing malicious. If you agree great! If not ...ok. What else can we talk about? <-- That's my approach. Nothing hateful. How would you suggest I convey that message? I want to honor your free will but I don't want to be dishonest about what's in my heart? I think it is dishonest for me to not say it if that is what I believe. What do you think? Your comments You are probably right about many of your comments hitting the editing floor. You and I haven't had a good history of dialog. While I would like that to change, you should know that I read every single comment (submitted here) and am always looking for ways to engage in fruitful conversation. You know that I won't allow promotion of one of the blogs you write for ... ever ... but I am glad you commented because I think it is helping me to understand the dynamic of what is happening a little better. I am trying to think through how to do this differently in the future. Third Response is to David It appears you are trying to make this as big a public spectacle as possible. I am not allowing any more of your comments regarding this to be published on this blog. You can try to get me fired all you want on your own blog. David, I know what Alan has said in response to you and you are more than welcome to give me a call or email me (through the contact form link above) your number and a time to call and I will call you if you'd like.
Mike Turner
· 1 year ago
Wooooww!!! The most frustrating thing about trying to have a conversation with someone who disagrees is when they are nothing less than hell-bent on starting a fight. If Christians, Jews, and Muslims would all just agree to respectfully discuss the issues till the end of time, INSTEAD OF FIGHTING ABOUT IT, then I think the discussions would actually get somewhere. Great job, Randy, for identifying the 'fight bait'. People who approach issues like that should never be given a platform, no matter WHAT their take is on the issue. Another thought: A debate can either be like atonal music, or discord. But only one is actually music, able to be enjoyed by many.
Randy
· 1 year ago
@Mike T interesting comparison to debate being "atonal." Not thought of it that way. I hate debates. But, we live in a great country already, where this type of blow up only leads to moderated comments and ripple effect blogposts.
@Mike that walks into a whole theological somethin' that I am not even going to try to attempt to describe. :). Good point though.
@Chas I was reminded of that via another source as well.
@Emily I appreciate you taking the time to come back and making the suggestions. I might strongly disagree but I don't know about "virulently."
Mike
· 1 year ago
I think people don't understand the Christian perspective on Christ (in a lot of ways), but pertaining to Jews I really don't think our aim is to 'convert.' After all, the way I understand it, Christ is for the Jews--before non-Jews even (Romans Chapter 1). The New Testament talks about Him being the fulfillment of all that God promised in His thousands-years courtship of the nation of Israel. Anyways, that's just how I look at it. For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us. (Eph. 2:14)
Randy, i don't really have a lot of time to answer your question, which is extremely complex. You will never be able to "share the Messiah" with Jews without causing us some sort of tension to occur even a little bit. I will say that one way to "share the gospel" is just to live as a Christian. Help the poor, be kind, tell the truth, etc...I'd give the same advice to someone trying to live as a Muslim, and I try to follow the same advice myself. Even the surliest anti-religious person can't get upset at a devout person of faith when they seem them performing a pure act. What's to object to? I recommend the following website to understand better what the concept of The Messiah means to Judaism: www.outreachjudaism.org. Specifically, the Question/Answer section where the Rabbi answers questions people submit maybe be of particular help: http://www.outreachjudaism.org/questions.html There will be some answers you will virulently disagree with. However, in terms of understanding the cold, plain theology behind Jewish belief, I don't think you can do much better than this particular webpage. Plus, I'm definitely not referring you there to try to convince you of anything or to get you to "see" that your religion is "false." And I doubt that you're that insecure religiously to believe so anyway.
Mike Turner
· 1 year ago
Emily: Wow! Now that's what I call being closer to Atonal as opposed to having discord. I am humbled and thrilled by your response at the same time. There's still hope! :)
Randy
· 1 year ago
@Mike T interesting comparison to debate being "atonal." Not thought of it that way. I hate debates. But, we live in a great country already, where this type of blow up only leads to moderated comments and ripple effect blogposts. @Mike that walks into a whole theological somethin' that I am not even going to try to attempt to describe. :). Good point though. @Chas I was reminded of that via another source as well. @Emily I appreciate you taking the time to come back and making the suggestions. I might strongly disagree but I don't know about "virulently."
Timothy Kincaid
· 1 year ago
"Wayne accused you basically of being a self-absorbed opportunist. Your attempts to turn this into something about yourself tends to lend to that observation."
David Benkof has an amazing gift at drawing unlikely people into agreement. Unfortunately it's wasted on getting us all to agree about his character.
Randy
· 1 year ago
Originally Posted By Timothy Kincaid David Benkof has an amazing gift at drawing unlikely people into agreement. Unfortunately it's wasted on getting us all to agree about his character.
Hmmm... I don't know that my statement is an outright finished judgment of the man's character. I seriously don't know David beyond this one exchange and a few follow up emails.
But I am passed all that.
Also, I think Emily and I finally had a productive conversation. Plus, there was a lot of other good thoughts represented above as well as on facebook.
You know how things travel on the Internet ;). Thanks for dropping by Timothy.
Timothy Kincaid
· 1 year ago
"Wayne accused you basically of being a self-absorbed opportunist. Your attempts to turn this into something about yourself tends to lend to that observation." David Benkof has an amazing gift at drawing unlikely people into agreement. Unfortunately it's wasted on getting us all to agree about his character.
Randy
· 1 year ago
Originally Posted By Timothy Kincaid David Benkof has an amazing gift at drawing unlikely people into agreement. Unfortunately it's wasted on getting us all to agree about his character.
Hmmm... I don't know that my statement is an outright finished judgment of the man's character. I seriously don't know David beyond this one exchange and a few follow up emails. But I am passed all that. Also, I think Emily and I finally had a productive conversation. Plus, there was a lot of other good thoughts represented above as well as on facebook. You know how things travel on the Internet ;). Thanks for dropping by Timothy.
All Comments
@David - I was actually being serious. When I pray for Wayne I truly want him to experience the transforming work of Christ just like the Apostle Paul (whose original name was Saul) did. I wasn't trying to be cute ... maybe clever ... but it was honest and good natured. He never told me it offended his Jewish sensibilities. If it did or does I would apologize but still be forthright that I am praying for him to have a similar experience as Paul.
I am sorry it offended you but classy or not, I want you to have a similar experience as well.
Wayne has always been able to handle the little bit of "teasing" I have extended his way, and I don't think anyone who really knows me thinks that I have the patience to "drop hints." I am pretty straight forward (no clever or cute pun intended.)
Please forgive my class-lessness. I won't offend you with a personal email ... however if you can handle someone who might offend you from time to time ... feel free to call or email any time.
well, there ya' go. Thanks for chiming in.
It's amazing that there are still many Orthodox Jews who think "ex-gays" and JONAH "healing advocates" actually support Jewish values. I promise you very few Orthodox Jews will think that when I'm through exposing how anti-Torah your movement is. Pathetic.
To be clear: I have no interest in knowing you. Thanks for not contacting me.
I actually talked to an orthodox Jewish friend of mine today and asked him to be very frank with me about my statements in the above post. I thought your reaction was melodramatic but I wanted to make sure that I wasn't being culturally insensitive.
He basically said that your reaction was indicative of someone who is insecure in who they are and what they believe in. Some Jews might be offended by me saying that but most of the few who take offense would understand that it is said without malice and move on. It's not anti-semitic. I have nothing but affection for Jewish people and respect their free will right to believe whatever they want on religious matters. I even came out publicly rebuking someone who compared Besen to Hitler and vandalized one of his pictures to reflect such.
Everyone knows that Christians would hope people would come into a relationship with Christ. Your breathless charge of antisemitism is ridiculous.
Wayne accused you basically of being a self-absorbed opportunist. Your attempts to turn this into something about yourself tends to lend to that observation.
If Wayne is upset about what I said, I even wonder if he remembers, he can tell me and I will apologize but still stick by the fact that I would want anyone not in relationship with Christ to come to relationship with Him.
I apologized to you but apparently that isn't enough.
So, go have fun in your part of the playground. My door is always open but please leave the chip on your shoulder out on the curb if you do ever decide to come back around.
I think it's funny that you think the antisemites should be the ones deciding what is or is not antisemitism. At least 75% of antisemites in history, including some of the worst, were convinced they weren't antisemitic.
I specifically told you I was not interested in your recruiting me for Christianity. But you just couldn't help yourself: "I want you to have a similar experience" as Paul, a Jew who "converted" to Christianity.
You apologized three sentences after you insulted me in precisely the way I told you would not be welcome. If I make a crack about throwing you to the lions, and then apologize three sentences later, does that mean I haven't said anything anti-Christian?
After all the things your people have done to my people, I think respecting a Jew's direct request that you not push christ (yemach shmo) in his face is the least you could do.
Especially when the Jew in question could be a great ally of yours, particularly given the inroads he has with audiences that will never, ever listen to you. It's your loss.
... if "your" audience acts up like you are I think I would rather hang out with Wayne and his friends. I'd rather have an up front sworn enemy than whatever kind of mayhem you seem to want to generate.
Wait a minute ... did I just say I'd rather hang out with Wayne? Oh.the.irony.
k ... all done with this. Be blessed in whatever manner agrees with you.
I am very grateful that the post meant a lot to you and you were willing to comment.
Very glad you are here. :)
<abbr>Brenna Kater, the Ocean Skaters last blog post..Green Smoothies on ... http://oceanskater.blogspot.com</abbr>
@David - I was actually being serious. When I pray for Wayne I truly want him to experience the transforming work of Christ just like the Apostle Paul (whose original name was Saul) did. I wasn't trying to be cute ... maybe clever ... but it was honest and good natured. He never told me it offended his Jewish sensibilities. If it did or does I would apologize but still be forthright that I am praying for him to have a similar experience as Paul.
I am sorry it offended you but classy or not, I want you to have a similar experience as well.
Wayne has always been able to handle the little bit of "teasing" I have extended his way, and I don't think anyone who really knows me thinks that I have the patience to "drop hints." I am pretty straight forward (no clever or cute pun intended.)
Please forgive my class-lessness. I won't offend you with a personal email ... however if you can handle someone who might offend you from time to time ... feel free to call or email any time.
well, there ya' go. Thanks for chiming in.
I have also written Randy's boss - who I've been in contact with and happen to like - to complain about the disrespect he shows people of other faiths, and to ask if his organization and/or his religion endorses his conduct.
It's amazing that there are still many Orthodox Jews who think "ex-gays" and JONAH "healing advocates" actually support Jewish values. I promise you very few Orthodox Jews will think that when I'm through exposing how anti-Torah your movement is. Pathetic.
To be clear: I have no interest in knowing you. Thanks for not contacting me.
I actually talked to an orthodox Jewish friend of mine today and asked him to be very frank with me about my statements in the above post. I thought your reaction was melodramatic but I wanted to make sure that I wasn't being culturally insensitive.
He basically said that your reaction was indicative of someone who is insecure in who they are and what they believe in. Some Jews might be offended by me saying that but most of the few who take offense would understand that it is said without malice and move on. It's not anti-semitic. I have nothing but affection for Jewish people and respect their free will right to believe whatever they want on religious matters. I even came out publicly rebuking someone who compared Besen to Hitler and vandalized one of his pictures to reflect such.
Everyone knows that Christians would hope people would come into a relationship with Christ. Your breathless charge of antisemitism is ridiculous.
Wayne accused you basically of being a self-absorbed opportunist. Your attempts to turn this into something about yourself tends to lend to that observation.
If Wayne is upset about what I said, I even wonder if he remembers, he can tell me and I will apologize but still stick by the fact that I would want anyone not in relationship with Christ to come to relationship with Him.
I apologized to you but apparently that isn't enough.
So, go have fun in your part of the playground. My door is always open but please leave the chip on your shoulder out on the curb if you do ever decide to come back around.
I think it's funny that you think the antisemites should be the ones deciding what is or is not antisemitism. At least 75% of antisemites in history, including some of the worst, were convinced they weren't antisemitic.
I specifically told you I was not interested in your recruiting me for Christianity. But you just couldn't help yourself: "I want you to have a similar experience" as Paul, a Jew who "converted" to Christianity.
You apologized three sentences after you insulted me in precisely the way I told you would not be welcome. If I make a crack about throwing you to the lions, and then apologize three sentences later, does that mean I haven't said anything anti-Christian?
After all the things your people have done to my people, I think respecting a Jew's direct request that you not push christ (yemach shmo) in his face is the least you could do.
Especially when the Jew in question could be a great ally of yours, particularly given the inroads he has with audiences that will never, ever listen to you. It's your loss.
... if "your" audience acts up like you are I think I would rather hang out with Wayne and his friends. I'd rather have an up front sworn enemy than whatever kind of mayhem you seem to want to generate.
Wait a minute ... did I just say I'd rather hang out with Wayne? Oh.the.irony.
k ... all done with this. Be blessed in whatever manner agrees with you.
I am very grateful that the post meant a lot to you and you were willing to comment.
Very glad you are here. :)
<abbr>Brenna Kater, the Ocean Skaters last blog post..Green Smoothies on ... http://oceanskater.blogspot.com</abbr>
Wayne is nice in person.
I make a point never to comment on your blog. My instinct tells me that most of my comments would probably never get past the editing floor. HOWEVER: I am commenting now in a sort of alliance with you, and to strongly encourage you not to "feed the troll." You seem to have decided this. Good. Benkof can write what he wants, but his "allies" on both sides seem to be disgusted with his motives and actions. I suspect he will quickly lose them all.
permit me to explain something: I don't care if you have an orthodox Jewish friend or a hundred orthodox Jewish friends; the fact is that the push to convert Jews to Christianity at the threat of death (living or spiritual) has caused tension and hostility between the two peoples that in my personal belief will never be reconciled because of simple theological differences. Many, including myself, believe that the anti-semitism so pervasive in Europe up until the Holocaust was caused by Christian hostility to Judaism as laid out in the Christian scriptures and commanded from the pulpit - Catholic and Protestant. So I fully understand Benkof's reaction.
BUT: His reaction is slightly dramatic and even immature. A Jew reacting in this way is exactly what many Christians expect and have expected for 2000 years: That when the "love of the gospel" is shared with a Jew, he recoils and becomes hostile- presumably, not because he wants to be left alone, but because he does not know what "true" spiritual love is. Similar things happened when Gibson's Passion hit theatres. Not all Jews reacted as Abe Foxman did. I personally am happy with someone thinking I'm going to hell. I know it's a difference of theology. This belief is your theology and shouldn't be confused with bigotry or anti-semitism. The truest term would be "anti-Judaic." This refers to being opposed to Jewish theology. This is not the same thing as being opposed to Jews, Jewish culture, or Israel.
Out of a thousand things we disagree on, here's one we agree on, that Benkof should be ignored.
Christian/Jewish History
I seriously didn't even think about all of that before saying what I said. I would *never* try to force conversion or death. I don't believe in that at all. I view the Crusades, the Holocaust and other horrifying events against the Jewish people blasphemy.
I love Christ with my whole being because of the many wonderful things He has done and meant to me. It's not dogma or anti-semitism, it's not even the fear of hell for that matter, that compels me to make such statements. I genuinely want others to experience the joy I have in relationship with Christ. Nothing malicious. If you agree great! If not ...ok. What else can we talk about? <-- That's my approach. Nothing hateful.
How would you suggest I convey that message? I want to honor your free will but I don't want to be dishonest about what's in my heart? I think it is dishonest for me to not say it if that is what I believe. What do you think?
Your comments
You are probably right about many of your comments hitting the editing floor. You and I haven't had a good history of dialog. While I would like that to change, you should know that I read every single comment (submitted here) and am always looking for ways to engage in fruitful conversation. You know that I won't allow promotion of one of the blogs you write for ... ever ... but I am glad you commented because I think it is helping me to understand the dynamic of what is happening a little better. I am trying to think through how to do this differently in the future.
Third Response is to David
It appears you are trying to make this as big a public spectacle as possible. I am not allowing any more of your comments regarding this to be published on this blog. You can try to get me fired all you want on your own blog. David, I know what Alan has said in response to you and you are more than welcome to give me a call or email me (through the contact form link above) your number and a time to call and I will call you if you'd like.
I have also written Randy's boss - who I've been in contact with and happen to like - to complain about the disrespect he shows people of other faiths, and to ask if his organization and/or his religion endorses his conduct.
If Christians, Jews, and Muslims would all just agree to respectfully discuss the issues till the end of time, INSTEAD OF FIGHTING ABOUT IT, then I think the discussions would actually get somewhere.
Great job, Randy, for identifying the 'fight bait'. People who approach issues like that should never be given a platform, no matter WHAT their take is on the issue.
Another thought: A debate can either be like atonal music, or discord. But only one is actually music, able to be enjoyed by many.
Anyways, that's just how I look at it.
For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us. (Eph. 2:14)
Blessings!
ChaplainChas.
<abbr>ChaplainChass last blog post..The Happenings on ... http://www.chaplainchas.blogspot.com</abbr>
i don't really have a lot of time to answer your question, which is extremely complex. You will never be able to "share the Messiah" with Jews without causing us some sort of tension to occur even a little bit.
I will say that one way to "share the gospel" is just to live as a Christian. Help the poor, be kind, tell the truth, etc...I'd give the same advice to someone trying to live as a Muslim, and I try to follow the same advice myself. Even the surliest anti-religious person can't get upset at a devout person of faith when they seem them performing a pure act. What's to object to?
I recommend the following website to understand better what the concept of The Messiah means to Judaism: www.outreachjudaism.org. Specifically, the Question/Answer section where the Rabbi answers questions people submit maybe be of particular help: http://www.outreachjudaism.org/questions.html
There will be some answers you will virulently disagree with. However, in terms of understanding the cold, plain theology behind Jewish belief, I don't think you can do much better than this particular webpage. Plus, I'm definitely not referring you there to try to convince you of anything or to get you to "see" that your religion is "false." And I doubt that you're that insecure religiously to believe so anyway.
There's still hope! :)
Wayne is nice in person.
I make a point never to comment on your blog. My instinct tells me that most of my comments would probably never get past the editing floor. HOWEVER: I am commenting now in a sort of alliance with you, and to strongly encourage you not to "feed the troll." You seem to have decided this. Good. Benkof can write what he wants, but his "allies" on both sides seem to be disgusted with his motives and actions. I suspect he will quickly lose them all.
permit me to explain something: I don't care if you have an orthodox Jewish friend or a hundred orthodox Jewish friends; the fact is that the push to convert Jews to Christianity at the threat of death (living or spiritual) has caused tension and hostility between the two peoples that in my personal belief will never be reconciled because of simple theological differences. Many, including myself, believe that the anti-semitism so pervasive in Europe up until the Holocaust was caused by Christian hostility to Judaism as laid out in the Christian scriptures and commanded from the pulpit - Catholic and Protestant. So I fully understand Benkof's reaction.
BUT: His reaction is slightly dramatic and even immature. A Jew reacting in this way is exactly what many Christians expect and have expected for 2000 years: That when the "love of the gospel" is shared with a Jew, he recoils and becomes hostile- presumably, not because he wants to be left alone, but because he does not know what "true" spiritual love is. Similar things happened when Gibson's Passion hit theatres. Not all Jews reacted as Abe Foxman did. I personally am happy with someone thinking I'm going to hell. I know it's a difference of theology. This belief is your theology and shouldn't be confused with bigotry or anti-semitism. The truest term would be "anti-Judaic." This refers to being opposed to Jewish theology. This is not the same thing as being opposed to Jews, Jewish culture, or Israel.
Out of a thousand things we disagree on, here's one we agree on, that Benkof should be ignored.
Christian/Jewish History
I seriously didn't even think about all of that before saying what I said. I would *never* try to force conversion or death. I don't believe in that at all. I view the Crusades, the Holocaust and other horrifying events against the Jewish people blasphemy.
I love Christ with my whole being because of the many wonderful things He has done and meant to me. It's not dogma or anti-semitism, it's not even the fear of hell for that matter, that compels me to make such statements. I genuinely want others to experience the joy I have in relationship with Christ. Nothing malicious. If you agree great! If not ...ok. What else can we talk about? <-- That's my approach. Nothing hateful.
How would you suggest I convey that message? I want to honor your free will but I don't want to be dishonest about what's in my heart? I think it is dishonest for me to not say it if that is what I believe. What do you think?
Your comments
You are probably right about many of your comments hitting the editing floor. You and I haven't had a good history of dialog. While I would like that to change, you should know that I read every single comment (submitted here) and am always looking for ways to engage in fruitful conversation. You know that I won't allow promotion of one of the blogs you write for ... ever ... but I am glad you commented because I think it is helping me to understand the dynamic of what is happening a little better. I am trying to think through how to do this differently in the future.
Third Response is to David
It appears you are trying to make this as big a public spectacle as possible. I am not allowing any more of your comments regarding this to be published on this blog. You can try to get me fired all you want on your own blog. David, I know what Alan has said in response to you and you are more than welcome to give me a call or email me (through the contact form link above) your number and a time to call and I will call you if you'd like.
If Christians, Jews, and Muslims would all just agree to respectfully discuss the issues till the end of time, INSTEAD OF FIGHTING ABOUT IT, then I think the discussions would actually get somewhere.
Great job, Randy, for identifying the 'fight bait'. People who approach issues like that should never be given a platform, no matter WHAT their take is on the issue.
Another thought: A debate can either be like atonal music, or discord. But only one is actually music, able to be enjoyed by many.
@Mike that walks into a whole theological somethin' that I am not even going to try to attempt to describe. :). Good point though.
@Chas I was reminded of that via another source as well.
@Emily I appreciate you taking the time to come back and making the suggestions. I might strongly disagree but I don't know about "virulently."
Anyways, that's just how I look at it.
For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us. (Eph. 2:14)
Blessings!
ChaplainChas.
<abbr>ChaplainChass last blog post..The Happenings on ... http://www.chaplainchas.blogspot.com</abbr>
i don't really have a lot of time to answer your question, which is extremely complex. You will never be able to "share the Messiah" with Jews without causing us some sort of tension to occur even a little bit.
I will say that one way to "share the gospel" is just to live as a Christian. Help the poor, be kind, tell the truth, etc...I'd give the same advice to someone trying to live as a Muslim, and I try to follow the same advice myself. Even the surliest anti-religious person can't get upset at a devout person of faith when they seem them performing a pure act. What's to object to?
I recommend the following website to understand better what the concept of The Messiah means to Judaism: www.outreachjudaism.org. Specifically, the Question/Answer section where the Rabbi answers questions people submit maybe be of particular help: http://www.outreachjudaism.org/questions.html
There will be some answers you will virulently disagree with. However, in terms of understanding the cold, plain theology behind Jewish belief, I don't think you can do much better than this particular webpage. Plus, I'm definitely not referring you there to try to convince you of anything or to get you to "see" that your religion is "false." And I doubt that you're that insecure religiously to believe so anyway.
There's still hope! :)
@Mike that walks into a whole theological somethin' that I am not even going to try to attempt to describe. :). Good point though.
@Chas I was reminded of that via another source as well.
@Emily I appreciate you taking the time to come back and making the suggestions. I might strongly disagree but I don't know about "virulently."
David Benkof has an amazing gift at drawing unlikely people into agreement. Unfortunately it's wasted on getting us all to agree about his character.
Hmmm... I don't know that my statement is an outright finished judgment of the man's character. I seriously don't know David beyond this one exchange and a few follow up emails.
But I am passed all that.
Also, I think Emily and I finally had a productive conversation. Plus, there was a lot of other good thoughts represented above as well as on facebook.
You know how things travel on the Internet ;). Thanks for dropping by Timothy.
David Benkof has an amazing gift at drawing unlikely people into agreement. Unfortunately it's wasted on getting us all to agree about his character.
Hmmm... I don't know that my statement is an outright finished judgment of the man's character. I seriously don't know David beyond this one exchange and a few follow up emails.
But I am passed all that.
Also, I think Emily and I finally had a productive conversation. Plus, there was a lot of other good thoughts represented above as well as on facebook.
You know how things travel on the Internet ;). Thanks for dropping by Timothy.