ETC: Everyday Thoughts Collected - Latest Comments in Face to Face with Wayne Besen

Re: Face to Face with Wayne Besen

Randy — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:50:57 -0000

Originally Posted By Timothy Kincaid
David Benkof has an amazing gift at drawing unlikely people into agreement. Unfortunately it's wasted on getting us all to agree about his character.

Hmmm... I don't know that my statement is an outright finished judgment of the man's character. I seriously don't know David beyond this one exchange and a few follow up emails.
But I am passed all that.
Also, I think Emily and I finally had a productive conversation. Plus, there was a lot of other good thoughts represented above as well as on facebook.
You know how things travel on the Internet ;). Thanks for dropping by Timothy.

Re: Face to Face with Wayne Besen

Timothy Kincaid — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 08:12:25 -0000

"Wayne accused you basically of being a self-absorbed opportunist. Your attempts to turn this into something about yourself tends to lend to that observation."
David Benkof has an amazing gift at drawing unlikely people into agreement. Unfortunately it's wasted on getting us all to agree about his character.

Re: Face to Face with Wayne Besen

RThomasETC — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 00:50:57 -0000

Originally Posted By Timothy Kincaid
David Benkof has an amazing gift at drawing unlikely people into agreement. Unfortunately it's wasted on getting us all to agree about his character.

Hmmm... I don't know that my statement is an outright finished judgment of the man's character. I seriously don't know David beyond this one exchange and a few follow up emails.

But I am passed all that.

Also, I think Emily and I finally had a productive conversation. Plus, there was a lot of other good thoughts represented above as well as on facebook.

You know how things travel on the Internet ;). Thanks for dropping by Timothy.

Re: Face to Face with Wayne Besen

Timothy Kincaid — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 22:12:25 -0000

"Wayne accused you basically of being a self-absorbed opportunist. Your attempts to turn this into something about yourself tends to lend to that observation."

David Benkof has an amazing gift at drawing unlikely people into agreement. Unfortunately it's wasted on getting us all to agree about his character.

Re: Face to Face with Wayne Besen

Randy — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:20:24 -0000

@Mike T interesting comparison to debate being "atonal." Not thought of it that way. I hate debates. But, we live in a great country already, where this type of blow up only leads to moderated comments and ripple effect blogposts.
@Mike that walks into a whole theological somethin' that I am not even going to try to attempt to describe. :). Good point though.
@Chas I was reminded of that via another source as well.
@Emily I appreciate you taking the time to come back and making the suggestions. I might strongly disagree but I don't know about "virulently."

Re: Face to Face with Wayne Besen

Mike Turner — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 03:58:19 -0000

Emily: Wow! Now that's what I call being closer to Atonal as opposed to having discord. I am humbled and thrilled by your response at the same time.
There's still hope! :)

Re: Face to Face with Wayne Besen

Emily K — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 03:53:12 -0000

Randy,
i don't really have a lot of time to answer your question, which is extremely complex. You will never be able to "share the Messiah" with Jews without causing us some sort of tension to occur even a little bit.
I will say that one way to "share the gospel" is just to live as a Christian. Help the poor, be kind, tell the truth, etc...I'd give the same advice to someone trying to live as a Muslim, and I try to follow the same advice myself. Even the surliest anti-religious person can't get upset at a devout person of faith when they seem them performing a pure act. What's to object to?
I recommend the following website to understand better what the concept of The Messiah means to Judaism: www.outreachjudaism.org. Specifically, the Question/Answer section where the Rabbi answers questions people submit maybe be of particular help: http://www.outreachjudaism.org/questions.html
There will be some answers you will virulently disagree with. However, in terms of understanding the cold, plain theology behind Jewish belief, I don't think you can do much better than this particular webpage. Plus, I'm definitely not referring you there to try to convince you of anything or to get you to "see" that your religion is "false." And I doubt that you're that insecure religiously to believe so anyway.

Re: Face to Face with Wayne Besen

ChaplainChas — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 02:09:29 -0000

I am reminded of a conversation I had with friends after watching "for the bible tells me so" when I stated that "we wrestle not against flesh and blood..." Ephesians 6:12. (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Eph/Eph006.h...)
Blessings!
ChaplainChas.
<abbr>ChaplainChass last blog post..The Happenings on ... http://www.chaplainchas.blogspot.com</abbr>

Re: Face to Face with Wayne Besen

Mike — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:39:34 -0000

I think people don't understand the Christian perspective on Christ (in a lot of ways), but pertaining to Jews I really don't think our aim is to 'convert.' After all, the way I understand it, Christ is for the Jews--before non-Jews even (Romans Chapter 1). The New Testament talks about Him being the fulfillment of all that God promised in His thousands-years courtship of the nation of Israel.
Anyways, that's just how I look at it.
For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us. (Eph. 2:14)

Re: Face to Face with Wayne Besen

RThomasETC — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:20:24 -0000

@Mike T interesting comparison to debate being "atonal." Not thought of it that way. I hate debates. But, we live in a great country already, where this type of blow up only leads to moderated comments and ripple effect blogposts.

@Mike that walks into a whole theological somethin' that I am not even going to try to attempt to describe. :). Good point though.

@Chas I was reminded of that via another source as well.

@Emily I appreciate you taking the time to come back and making the suggestions. I might strongly disagree but I don't know about "virulently."

Re: Face to Face with Wayne Besen

Mike Turner — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:13:12 -0000

Wooooww!!! The most frustrating thing about trying to have a conversation with someone who disagrees is when they are nothing less than hell-bent on starting a fight.
If Christians, Jews, and Muslims would all just agree to respectfully discuss the issues till the end of time, INSTEAD OF FIGHTING ABOUT IT, then I think the discussions would actually get somewhere.
Great job, Randy, for identifying the 'fight bait'. People who approach issues like that should never be given a platform, no matter WHAT their take is on the issue.
Another thought: A debate can either be like atonal music, or discord. But only one is actually music, able to be enjoyed by many.

Re: Face to Face with Wayne Besen

Randy — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:22:30 -0000

Emily, first I am very glad you posted ... the lights are coming on for me. You reaffirmed what my friend said yesterday but helped my mind turn a corner. I have three responses two for you and one for David.
Christian/Jewish History
I seriously didn't even think about all of that before saying what I said. I would *never* try to force conversion or death. I don't believe in that at all. I view the Crusades, the Holocaust and other horrifying events against the Jewish people blasphemy.
I love Christ with my whole being because of the many wonderful things He has done and meant to me. It's not dogma or anti-semitism, it's not even the fear of hell for that matter, that compels me to make such statements. I genuinely want others to experience the joy I have in relationship with Christ. Nothing malicious. If you agree great! If not ...ok. What else can we talk about? <-- That's my approach. Nothing hateful.
How would you suggest I convey that message? I want to honor your free will but I don't want to be dishonest about what's in my heart? I think it is dishonest for me to not say it if that is what I believe. What do you think?
Your comments
You are probably right about many of your comments hitting the editing floor. You and I haven't had a good history of dialog. While I would like that to change, you should know that I read every single comment (submitted here) and am always looking for ways to engage in fruitful conversation. You know that I won't allow promotion of one of the blogs you write for ... ever ... but I am glad you commented because I think it is helping me to understand the dynamic of what is happening a little better. I am trying to think through how to do this differently in the future.
Third Response is to David
It appears you are trying to make this as big a public spectacle as possible. I am not allowing any more of your comments regarding this to be published on this blog. You can try to get me fired all you want on your own blog. David, I know what Alan has said in response to you and you are more than welcome to give me a call or email me (through the contact form link above) your number and a time to call and I will call you if you'd like.

Re: Face to Face with Wayne Besen

Emily K — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 20:20:00 -0000

Randy,
I make a point never to comment on your blog. My instinct tells me that most of my comments would probably never get past the editing floor. HOWEVER: I am commenting now in a sort of alliance with you, and to strongly encourage you not to "feed the troll." You seem to have decided this. Good. Benkof can write what he wants, but his "allies" on both sides seem to be disgusted with his motives and actions. I suspect he will quickly lose them all.
permit me to explain something: I don't care if you have an orthodox Jewish friend or a hundred orthodox Jewish friends; the fact is that the push to convert Jews to Christianity at the threat of death (living or spiritual) has caused tension and hostility between the two peoples that in my personal belief will never be reconciled because of simple theological differences. Many, including myself, believe that the anti-semitism so pervasive in Europe up until the Holocaust was caused by Christian hostility to Judaism as laid out in the Christian scriptures and commanded from the pulpit - Catholic and Protestant. So I fully understand Benkof's reaction.
BUT: His reaction is slightly dramatic and even immature. A Jew reacting in this way is exactly what many Christians expect and have expected for 2000 years: That when the "love of the gospel" is shared with a Jew, he recoils and becomes hostile- presumably, not because he wants to be left alone, but because he does not know what "true" spiritual love is. Similar things happened when Gibson's Passion hit theatres. Not all Jews reacted as Abe Foxman did. I personally am happy with someone thinking I'm going to hell. I know it's a difference of theology. This belief is your theology and shouldn't be confused with bigotry or anti-semitism. The truest term would be "anti-Judaic." This refers to being opposed to Jewish theology. This is not the same thing as being opposed to Jews, Jewish culture, or Israel.
Out of a thousand things we disagree on, here's one we agree on, that Benkof should be ignored.

Re: Face to Face with Wayne Besen

Randy — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 18:57:09 -0000

::: shrug ::: I don't know what else to do except try to get back to the point of the original post.
Wayne is nice in person.

Re: Face to Face with Wayne Besen

Mike Turner — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:58:19 -0000

Emily: Wow! Now that's what I call being closer to Atonal as opposed to having discord. I am humbled and thrilled by your response at the same time.

There's still hope! :)

Re: Face to Face with Wayne Besen

Emily K — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:53:12 -0000

Randy,

i don't really have a lot of time to answer your question, which is extremely complex. You will never be able to "share the Messiah" with Jews without causing us some sort of tension to occur even a little bit.

I will say that one way to "share the gospel" is just to live as a Christian. Help the poor, be kind, tell the truth, etc...I'd give the same advice to someone trying to live as a Muslim, and I try to follow the same advice myself. Even the surliest anti-religious person can't get upset at a devout person of faith when they seem them performing a pure act. What's to object to?

I recommend the following website to understand better what the concept of The Messiah means to Judaism: www.outreachjudaism.org. Specifically, the Question/Answer section where the Rabbi answers questions people submit maybe be of particular help: http://www.outreachjudaism.org/questions.html

There will be some answers you will virulently disagree with. However, in terms of understanding the cold, plain theology behind Jewish belief, I don't think you can do much better than this particular webpage. Plus, I'm definitely not referring you there to try to convince you of anything or to get you to "see" that your religion is "false." And I doubt that you're that insecure religiously to believe so anyway.

Re: Face to Face with Wayne Besen

ChaplainChas — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:09:29 -0000

I am reminded of a conversation I had with friends after watching "for the bible tells me so" when I stated that "we wrestle not against flesh and blood..." Ephesians 6:12. (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Eph/Eph006.h...)

Blessings!
ChaplainChas.

<abbr>ChaplainChass last blog post..The Happenings on ... http://www.chaplainchas.blogspot.com</abbr>

Re: Face to Face with Wayne Besen

Mike — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:39:34 -0000

I think people don't understand the Christian perspective on Christ (in a lot of ways), but pertaining to Jews I really don't think our aim is to 'convert.' After all, the way I understand it, Christ is for the Jews--before non-Jews even (Romans Chapter 1). The New Testament talks about Him being the fulfillment of all that God promised in His thousands-years courtship of the nation of Israel.

Anyways, that's just how I look at it.

For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us. (Eph. 2:14)

Re: Face to Face with Wayne Besen

Mike Turner — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:13:12 -0000

Wooooww!!! The most frustrating thing about trying to have a conversation with someone who disagrees is when they are nothing less than hell-bent on starting a fight.

If Christians, Jews, and Muslims would all just agree to respectfully discuss the issues till the end of time, INSTEAD OF FIGHTING ABOUT IT, then I think the discussions would actually get somewhere.

Great job, Randy, for identifying the 'fight bait'. People who approach issues like that should never be given a platform, no matter WHAT their take is on the issue.

Another thought: A debate can either be like atonal music, or discord. But only one is actually music, able to be enjoyed by many.

Re: Face to Face with Wayne Besen

David Benkof — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:36:40 -0000

I just wanted everyone to know I've blogged about Randy's behavior: http://www.gaysdefendmarriage.com/?p=56
I have also written Randy's boss - who I've been in contact with and happen to like - to complain about the disrespect he shows people of other faiths, and to ask if his organization and/or his religion endorses his conduct.

Re: Face to Face with Wayne Besen

RThomasETC — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:22:30 -0000

Emily, first I am very glad you posted ... the lights are coming on for me. You reaffirmed what my friend said yesterday but helped my mind turn a corner. I have three responses two for you and one for David.

Christian/Jewish History
I seriously didn't even think about all of that before saying what I said. I would *never* try to force conversion or death. I don't believe in that at all. I view the Crusades, the Holocaust and other horrifying events against the Jewish people blasphemy.

I love Christ with my whole being because of the many wonderful things He has done and meant to me. It's not dogma or anti-semitism, it's not even the fear of hell for that matter, that compels me to make such statements. I genuinely want others to experience the joy I have in relationship with Christ. Nothing malicious. If you agree great! If not ...ok. What else can we talk about? <-- That's my approach. Nothing hateful.

How would you suggest I convey that message? I want to honor your free will but I don't want to be dishonest about what's in my heart? I think it is dishonest for me to not say it if that is what I believe. What do you think?

Your comments

You are probably right about many of your comments hitting the editing floor. You and I haven't had a good history of dialog. While I would like that to change, you should know that I read every single comment (submitted here) and am always looking for ways to engage in fruitful conversation. You know that I won't allow promotion of one of the blogs you write for ... ever ... but I am glad you commented because I think it is helping me to understand the dynamic of what is happening a little better. I am trying to think through how to do this differently in the future.

Third Response is to David

It appears you are trying to make this as big a public spectacle as possible. I am not allowing any more of your comments regarding this to be published on this blog. You can try to get me fired all you want on your own blog. David, I know what Alan has said in response to you and you are more than welcome to give me a call or email me (through the contact form link above) your number and a time to call and I will call you if you'd like.

Re: Face to Face with Wayne Besen

Emily K — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:20:00 -0000

Randy,

I make a point never to comment on your blog. My instinct tells me that most of my comments would probably never get past the editing floor. HOWEVER: I am commenting now in a sort of alliance with you, and to strongly encourage you not to "feed the troll." You seem to have decided this. Good. Benkof can write what he wants, but his "allies" on both sides seem to be disgusted with his motives and actions. I suspect he will quickly lose them all.

permit me to explain something: I don't care if you have an orthodox Jewish friend or a hundred orthodox Jewish friends; the fact is that the push to convert Jews to Christianity at the threat of death (living or spiritual) has caused tension and hostility between the two peoples that in my personal belief will never be reconciled because of simple theological differences. Many, including myself, believe that the anti-semitism so pervasive in Europe up until the Holocaust was caused by Christian hostility to Judaism as laid out in the Christian scriptures and commanded from the pulpit - Catholic and Protestant. So I fully understand Benkof's reaction.

BUT: His reaction is slightly dramatic and even immature. A Jew reacting in this way is exactly what many Christians expect and have expected for 2000 years: That when the "love of the gospel" is shared with a Jew, he recoils and becomes hostile- presumably, not because he wants to be left alone, but because he does not know what "true" spiritual love is. Similar things happened when Gibson's Passion hit theatres. Not all Jews reacted as Abe Foxman did. I personally am happy with someone thinking I'm going to hell. I know it's a difference of theology. This belief is your theology and shouldn't be confused with bigotry or anti-semitism. The truest term would be "anti-Judaic." This refers to being opposed to Jewish theology. This is not the same thing as being opposed to Jews, Jewish culture, or Israel.

Out of a thousand things we disagree on, here's one we agree on, that Benkof should be ignored.

Re: Face to Face with Wayne Besen

RThomasETC — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 08:57:09 -0000

::: shrug ::: I don't know what else to do except try to get back to the point of the original post.

Wayne is nice in person.

Re: Face to Face with Wayne Besen

Randy — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 08:57:06 -0000

yeah ya' did :)

Re: Face to Face with Wayne Besen

Brenna Kater, the Ocean Skater — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 08:44:07 -0000

I saw the historic meeting in New Orleans :)
<abbr>Brenna Kater, the Ocean Skaters last blog post..Green Smoothies on ... http://oceanskater.blogspot.com</abbr>