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No More “Mr. Nice Gay”? Is This What We Want?

Started by Randy · 7 months ago

I don’t think so. Warning, the below video has high pitched whistles and yelling laced with expletives. The whistles go throughout the whole video. So watching at work is probably not a good idea with the volume up. A little more after the jump …

There are all kinds ... Continue reading »

61 comments

  • ChaplianChas.

    7 months ago

    :::pondering the heart of God:::

    Thanks for the update, Randy.
    reply
  • Oceanskater

    7 months ago

    The video is scary. It's sort of hard to figure out what's going on, but the "self-policing" is pretty frightening.
    reply
  • Randy

    7 months ago

    I was confused at the beginning of it but by the end it was obvious. The shouts if "this is our neighborhood..." was amazing to me as well.
    reply
  • Ryan

    7 months ago

    Wow - well I can't say I'm surprised. I've actually been part of this group in the past and been to the Castro on Friday nights (and wrote in my blog about an absolutely absurd story written by the SF Chronicle about my old church and this group). I always wondered when something like this would happen.
    reply
  • Randy

    7 months ago

    I just noticed your blog wasn't on my blogroll! How did that happen? Must of happened when I migrated. I am ammending that error now.

    I would love to have a link to that particular blog post. I can add it to the original post.
    reply
  • Ryan

    7 months ago

    http://ryanzondervan.typepad.com/ryans_rambling...

    Took a while to find it.
    To Joe's comments: I would tend to agree. The first couple of times I went out with this group, the Lord granted amazing favor to us. We had lots of opportunities to simply talk to people and pray. In the context of everything that has happened since the election, the words "wise as serpents innocent as doves" come to mind. The outreach has been happening for at least 3 and maybe 4 years now - I know the people who started it, and in their defense its not like they showed up Friday for the first time (in fact, I'm not sure the people who were there this past Friday are even directly connected to the people who originally started the outreach). Still, maybe not the best judgment, but the reaction is definitely scary.
    reply
  • Randy

    7 months ago

    Thanks for sharing Ryan. Good article. I have added a link to the original post.

    Also, there are reply links under each comment if you wanted to reply directly to Joe's.

    It's good to see you.
    reply
  • JoeDallas

    7 months ago

    To me, it seems naive to invest time and energy doing street witnessing in the Castro, where a riot is pretty much gauranteed. I deeply respect these Christians and others like them who take this approach, but whatever limitied fruit comes of it seems outweighed by these kind of upheavals. I think we'd do better equipping Christians to build relationships with gay friends, co-workers and loved ones, and in that context they can share the gospel more effectively than in an environment that gets so adversarial.
    That said, when freedom of speech gets trampled on, that's worth fighting. The public should be aware of anyone's abuse of anyone else's free speech, so I think it's important this video gets exposure. (Though I hope whoever shows it is honest enough to remind viewers that a mob of angry young Castro gays isn't a good representation of the entire homosexual population.)
    But hey, the comments from gay readers on the "No More Mr. Nice Gay" blog you linked above pretty much applaud these gay "strong arm" tactics. That's more distrubing to me than the video itself.
    reply
  • Randy

    7 months ago

    Great points Joe. I did an interview today where I said basically the same thing. These incidents of violence and intolerance do not represent the whole of the gay community.

    But, it seems that this type of behavior is gaining acceptance within the gay community and I pray that isn't a trend and am hoping that exposing when people approach or cross the line will reinforce the need for protecting that freedom.

    As for the gay blog I linked too... you should have seen the comments on the one I decided to pass by. ::: whew :::
    reply
  • Nick

    7 months ago

    I bounce back and forth between being depressed by stuff like this....and being hopeful that more will be reached.

    My wife and I love San Francisco. We grew up near there and for awhile lived in a Christian commune in Haight-Ashbury (back in the day). But so much as changed since then.

    I still pray for the city when it comes to mind. What a mission field!
    reply
  • Randy

    7 months ago

    Wow, that's something you could blog about :) A comparison/contrast of the San Fran you knew then and what you see happening now.

    And ... uh ... a Christan commune? What exactly is that?
    reply
  • Nick

    7 months ago

    We had two old Victorian houses. All the men were in one and the women in the other. We had meetings, did evangelism, a radio broadcast....and we had WORK to do. I cleaned the bathrooms. Bev, my wife, worked in the kitchen. Most of our food was dated food donated by bread companies and the like. It was one of the most rewarding experiences of my life. Until it got off-base and a little bit cultic.

    Most of the people had come to the Lord through the ministry. Some had been drug users....and one had been a male hustler.

    I may blog about it someday.
    reply
  • Randy

    7 months ago

    Thanks for following up on that. I would love to read more about that. I have heard of Christian communes but those stories always seemed to end badly.

    I love watching and learning about group behavior. The odd thing is I don't like most reality tv because it isn't really real. So *real* real life stories intrigue me.
    reply
  • ChaplianChas.

    7 months ago

    :::pondering the heart of God:::


    Thanks for the update, Randy.

    reply
  • Matt_V

    7 months ago

    I think one of the scary things about the recent change in tone from gay activists is that, from a psychological perspective, there's a lot of oppressed and repressed masculinity in a group of gay men. It makes for a combination of a deeply-rooted anger and an unrecognized strength that has the potential to be extremely destructive. Of corse, I'm not saying that gay-identified individuals should be seen as dangerous -- the majority are very civil and level headed -- I'm speaking more of the mob mentality exhibited in situations like this.
    reply
  • Randy

    7 months ago

    That is a very ... very ... interesting analysis Matt. Good hypothesis.

    I am trying to think if that relates to the whole "bear" thing going on in the gay community. That whole thing just perplexes me.
    reply
  • B.T.Carolus

    7 months ago

    I think the bear community is supposed to be a reaction against...can it be described as boi culture? and the whole insistence on thin hairless young men (at least as they percieve it). Plus it's also just a way of positively dealing with the fact that you are no longer thin and hairless. Very often bears have just as many 'femme' traits as the thin and hairless crowd, they just do it while being large, hairy, and drinking beer (sort of like when leather daddies stand around talking about their favorite musicals, while drinking beer and wearing harnesses).

    Matt's whole concept is really interesting.
    reply
  • Randy

    7 months ago

    I have thought about trying to interview a "bear" man, for this blog, via google talk and post the transcript. But I don't know that I would find one who would be willing and would treat it seriously.
    reply
  • Jay

    7 months ago

    I always assumed that the bear community had more to do with preference in one's appearance (and the appearance of one's mates) than anything else. I don't think it's necessarily a reaction against anything (although often times people do see their preferences as better than everyone else's preferences). Some straight men are very attracted to overweight women, others are attracted to women who have more androgynous features, etc. Generally, they aren't psychoanalyzed. We just assume that people are going to have a diversity of preferences (for whatever reason). So there's probably as much diversity in one's "type" preference among gay men and women.

    However, I can't say I agree with Matt's concept. I don't think there is necessarily any oppressed or repressed masculinity among gay men (anymore than there is among straight men). Simply having "femme" traits doesn't make one non-masculine (I know a few straight men who are extremely effeminate, just in their mannerisms; it's just who they are). Our definitions of "masculinity" and "femininity" more-or-less come from culture, anyway.

    Perhaps it's not that there has been repressed masculinity among gay men that is now surfacing. Maybe it's just that people always assumed that gay men weren't strong to start with, so now they're surprised to see this kind of anger (legitimate or not) coming from that community.
    reply
  • B.T.Carolus

    7 months ago

    What would you ask him?
    reply
  • Randy

    7 months ago

    Well, I can't give that away :) I am hoping an interview will happen some day :).

    BUT, it would be along the lines of how long has this sub-culture existed (I don't remember any "bears" back in my day, doesn't mean there weren't any... I just never met any). What is the pros and cons of identifying in such a manner? Is the gay community really diverse in solidifying these subgroups or actually isolating people into these subgroups.

    it would definitely be only about identity and sociology type questions. Plus, my style would probably let the conversation carry itself. Kind of like what I did with Matt Sanchez.
    reply
  • B.T.Carolus

    7 months ago

    I think it's sort of a California phenomenon, at least originally.
    reply
  • Randy

    7 months ago

    I agree about Matt's concept. I have heard it said differently numerous times but ... he should totally write more about it ;)
    reply
  • Brenna Kater, the Oceanskater

    7 months ago

    The video is scary. It's sort of hard to figure out what's going on, but the "self-policing" is pretty frightening.
    reply
  • Ryan

    7 months ago

    Wow - well I can't say I'm surprised. I've actually been part of this group in the past and been to the Castro on Friday nights (and wrote in my blog about an absolutely absurd story written by the SF Chronicle about my old church and this group). I always wondered when something like this would happen.
    reply
  • Randy

    7 months ago

    I was confused at the beginning of it but by the end it was obvious. The shouts if "this is our neighborhood..." was amazing to me as well.
    reply
  • Randy

    7 months ago

    I just noticed your blog wasn't on my blogroll! How did that happen? Must of happened when I migrated. I am ammending that error now.


    I would love to have a link to that particular blog post. I can add it to the original post.

    reply
  • JoeDallas

    7 months ago

    To me, it seems naive to invest time and energy doing street witnessing in the Castro, where a riot is pretty much gauranteed. I deeply respect these Christians and others like them who take this approach, but whatever limitied fruit comes of it seems outweighed by these kind of upheavals. I think we'd do better equipping Christians to build relationships with gay friends, co-workers and loved ones, and in that context they can share the gospel more effectively than in an environment that gets so adversarial.
    That said, when freedom of speech gets trampled on, that's worth fighting. The public should be aware of anyone's abuse of anyone else's free speech, so I think it's important this video gets exposure. (Though I hope whoever shows it is honest enough to remind viewers that a mob of angry young Castro gays isn't a good representation of the entire homosexual population.)

    But hey, the comments from gay readers on the "No More Mr. Nice Gay" blog you linked above pretty much applaud these gay "strong arm" tactics. That's more distrubing to me than the video itself.

    reply
  • Ryan

    7 months ago

    http://ryanzondervan.typepad.com/ryans_rambling...


    Took a while to find it.

    To Joe's comments: I would tend to agree. The first couple of times I went out with this group, the Lord granted amazing favor to us. We had lots of opportunities to simply talk to people and pray. In the context of everything that has happened since the election, the words "wise as serpents innocent as doves" come to mind. The outreach has been happening for at least 3 and maybe 4 years now - I know the people who started it, and in their defense its not like they showed up Friday for the first time (in fact, I'm not sure the people who were there this past Friday are even directly connected to the people who originally started the outreach). Still, maybe not the best judgment, but the reaction is definitely scary.

    reply
  • Nick

    7 months ago

    I bounce back and forth between being depressed by stuff like this....and being hopeful that more will be reached.


    My wife and I love San Francisco. We grew up near there and for awhile lived in a Christian commune in Haight-Ashbury (back in the day). But so much as changed since then.



    I still pray for the city when it comes to mind. What a mission field!

    reply
  • RThomasETC (Randy Thomas)

    7 months ago

    No More "Mr. Nice Gay"? Is This What We Want? http://tinyurl.com/5hs4mv
    reply
  • Matt_V

    7 months ago

    I think one of the scary things about the recent change in tone from gay activists is that, from a psychological perspective, there's a lot of oppressed and repressed masculinity in a group of gay men. It makes for a combination of a deeply-rooted anger and an unrecognized strength that has the potential to be extremely destructive. Of corse, I'm not saying that gay-identified individuals should be seen as dangerous -- the majority are very civil and level headed -- I'm speaking more of the mob mentality exhibited in situations like this.
    reply
  • Randy

    7 months ago

    Thanks for sharing Ryan. Good article. I have added a link to the original post.


    Also, there are reply links under each comment if you wanted to reply directly to Joe's.



    It's good to see you.

    reply
  • Randy

    7 months ago

    Great points Joe. I did an interview today where I said basically the same thing. These incidents of violence and intolerance do not represent the whole of the gay community.


    But, it seems that this type of behavior is gaining acceptance within the gay community and I pray that isn't a trend and am hoping that exposing when people approach or cross the line will reinforce the need for protecting that freedom.



    As for the gay blog I linked too... you should have seen the comments on the one I decided to pass by. ::: whew :::

    reply
  • Randy

    7 months ago

    Wow, that's something you could blog about :) A comparison/contrast of the San Fran you knew then and what you see happening now.


    And ... uh ... a Christan commune? What exactly is that?

    reply
  • Randy

    7 months ago

    That is a very ... very ... interesting analysis Matt. Good hypothesis.


    I am trying to think if that relates to the whole "bear" thing going on in the gay community. That whole thing just perplexes me.

    reply
  • B.T.Carolus

    7 months ago

    I think the bear community is supposed to be a reaction against...can it be described as boi culture? and the whole insistence on thin hairless young men (at least as they percieve it). Plus it's also just a way of positively dealing with the fact that you are no longer thin and hairless. Very often bears have just as many 'femme' traits as the thin and hairless crowd, they just do it while being large, hairy, and drinking beer (sort of like when leather daddies stand around talking about their favorite musicals, while drinking beer and wearing harnesses).


    Matt's whole concept is really interesting.

    reply
  • JoeDallas

    7 months ago

    You know, Ryan, I don't like the way I phrased my comments in my earlier post regarding the Christians in the Castro. My point was that I question whether or not that's the most effective way to take a stand. But what I didn'I add was this - I assume they've prayed on it, and feel this is what they're called to do, and I gotta salute them for putting themselves out there and showing a committment that puts lots of Christians to shame. I used to do a lot of street witnessing, and I know you do real emotional and spiritual (and physical) battle when you're on the front line. I respect all of you who've done that. I wish more of us had that kind of zeal.
    Uh -- bears? Both Renee and Jeremy often call me "The Bear." Should I be worried? Don't answer.
    reply
  • Randy

    7 months ago

    ::: putting moderator hat on ::: Don't forget to hit the reply link underneath the comment you are responding too. It helps the conversations stay together. ::: taking moderator hat off :::

    Joe, don't worry about that nickname from your family ... from other people though ... be skeptical.
    reply
  • Ryan

    7 months ago

    Ok -a little update. I spoke yesterday afternoon with a good friend in San Francisco who was part of the original group that started the Friday night Castro outreach several years ago. He said he was not there Friday night, but spoke with the people from SFJHOP who went. (My personal recommendation to him was that in spite of the very genuine and loving intentions of the participants, at a time like this the presence of a group like this in the Castro would likely be seen as intentionally provocative by the gay community. I think the media articles that continue to refer to the group as "Christians who are trying to turn gay people straight" is good evidence of this).

    What wasn't seen in the video is that a young woman was pushed to the ground and then kicked by several people. While fortunately no serious injury occurred, the event definitely involved physical violence. The police came and advised the group to get in their van to be escorted to safety.

    A little background on the group - it was born out of a vision and passion by a member of my old church in SF who once identified as gay and was heavily involved in the Castro "scene." He was joined by my friend who has an openly gay brother living in San Francisco, along with several other members of the church. The main focus of the Friday night outreaches was proclaiming the love of Jesus and praying with people. Anytime you mix Castro and Christian controversy is bound to show up. Some nights were peaceful, other times it caused a stir. (On one of my nights out a drunk man standing next to me called 911 to report that "The Christians are persecuting me." Seriously.)

    Maybe about a year or so ago the original members of the group started to fade out, and the SFJHOP people became more involved. I've always felt a bit uncomfortable with this for some reason. In my mind it seems important that if you're going to do something like this, it needs to involve people who are directly tied to the community you are trying to reach.

    But you are right Joe - a whole lot of prayer has gone into this ministry, and I can't speak for the SFJHOP folks but I know the people who originally started this outreach felt specifically called to the Castro by the Lord and were bold in ways that I really respect. (The first time I attempted to go out with my friends I got physically sick to my stomach, turned around and went home! It was right before I moved away from SF)
    reply
  • Randy

    7 months ago

    Wow, that's amazing Ryan. I am tempted to turn your testimony into a new post. I think it gives a clearer picture of the history and the events of what happened.

    Hmmm... Interview? hmmm...

    But, I would imagine you might blog about this more. If you do I will link to it. Thanks for chiming in. Very good.
    reply
  • On Drivetime with Bill Bunkley

    7 months ago

    [...] hand, bullied, shamed, stigmatized and run off. It is reprehensible that those young people were chased out of the Castro needing protection from the police escorting them out. All of that is deplorable behavior and [...]
    reply
  • Randy

    7 months ago

    I have thought about trying to interview a "bear" man, for this blog, via google talk and post the transcript. But I don't know that I would find one who would be willing and would treat it seriously.
    reply
  • Randy

    7 months ago

    I agree about Matt's concept. I have heard it said differently numerous times but ... he should totally write more about it ;)
    reply
  • JoeDallas

    7 months ago

    You know, Ryan, I don't like the way I phrased my comments in my earlier post regarding the Christians in the Castro. My point was that I question whether or not that's the most effective way to take a stand. But what I didn'I add was this - I assume they've prayed on it, and feel this is what they're called to do, and I gotta salute them for putting themselves out there and showing a committment that puts lots of Christians to shame. I used to do a lot of street witnessing, and I know you do real emotional and spiritual (and physical) battle when you're on the front line. I respect all of you who've done that. I wish more of us had that kind of zeal.
    Uh -- bears? Both Renee and Jeremy often call me "The Bear." Should I be worried? Don't answer.

    reply
  • Nick

    7 months ago

    We had two old Victorian houses. All the men were in one and the women in the other. We had meetings, did evangelism, a radio broadcast....and we had WORK to do. I cleaned the bathrooms. Bev, my wife, worked in the kitchen. Most of our food was dated food donated by bread companies and the like. It was one of the most rewarding experiences of my life. Until it got off-base and a little bit cultic.


    Most of the people had come to the Lord through the ministry. Some had been drug users....and one had been a male hustler.



    I may blog about it someday.

    reply
  • B.T.Carolus

    7 months ago

    What would you ask him?
    reply
  • Randy

    7 months ago

    Well, I can't give that away :) I am hoping an interview will happen some day :).


    BUT, it would be along the lines of how long has this sub-culture existed (I don't remember any "bears" back in my day, doesn't mean there weren't any... I just never met any). What is the pros and cons of identifying in such a manner? Is the gay community really diverse in solidifying these subgroups or actually isolating people into these subgroups.



    it would definitely be only about identity and sociology type questions. Plus, my style would probably let the conversation carry itself. Kind of like what I did with Matt Sanchez.

    reply
  • Randy

    7 months ago

    Thanks for following up on that. I would love to read more about that. I have heard of Christian communes but those stories always seemed to end badly.


    I love watching and learning about group behavior. The odd thing is I don't like most reality tv because it isn't really real. So *real* real life stories intrigue me.

    reply
  • Randy

    7 months ago

    ::: putting moderator hat on ::: Don't forget to hit the reply link underneath the comment you are responding too. It helps the conversations stay together. ::: taking moderator hat off :::


    Joe, don't worry about that nickname from your family ... from other people though ... be skeptical.

    reply
  • B.T.Carolus

    7 months ago

    I think it's sort of a California phenomenon, at least originally.
    reply
  • Ryan

    7 months ago

    Ok -a little update. I spoke yesterday afternoon with a good friend in San Francisco who was part of the original group that started the Friday night Castro outreach several years ago. He said he was not there Friday night, but spoke with the people from SFJHOP who went. (My personal recommendation to him was that in spite of the very genuine and loving intentions of the participants, at a time like this the presence of a group like this in the Castro would likely be seen as intentionally provocative by the gay community. I think the media articles that continue to refer to the group as "Christians who are trying to turn gay people straight" is good evidence of this).


    What wasn't seen in the video is that a young woman was pushed to the ground and then kicked by several people. While fortunately no serious injury occurred, the event definitely involved physical violence. The police came and advised the group to get in their van to be escorted to safety.



    A little background on the group - it was born out of a vision and passion by a member of my old church in SF who once identified as gay and was heavily involved in the Castro "scene." He was joined by my friend who has an openly gay brother living in San Francisco, along with several other members of the church. The main focus of the Friday night outreaches was proclaiming the love of Jesus and praying with people. Anytime you mix Castro and Christian controversy is bound to show up. Some nights were peaceful, other times it caused a stir. (On one of my nights out a drunk man standing next to me called 911 to report that "The Christians are persecuting me." Seriously.)



    Maybe about a year or so ago the original members of the group started to fade out, and the SFJHOP people became more involved. I've always felt a bit uncomfortable with this for some reason. In my mind it seems important that if you're going to do something like this, it needs to involve people who are directly tied to the community you are trying to reach.



    But you are right Joe - a whole lot of prayer has gone into this ministry, and I can't speak for the SFJHOP folks but I know the people who originally started this outreach felt specifically called to the Castro by the Lord and were bold in ways that I really respect. (The first time I attempted to go out with my friends I got physically sick to my stomach, turned around and went home! It was right before I moved away from SF)

    reply
  • Randy

    7 months ago

    Wow, that's amazing Ryan. I am tempted to turn your testimony into a new post. I think it gives a clearer picture of the history and the events of what happened.


    Hmmm... Interview? hmmm...



    But, I would imagine you might blog about this more. If you do I will link to it. Thanks for chiming in. Very good.

    reply
  • Alan Chambers

    7 months ago

    Wow is right. That video was seriously disturbing similar to what some of us experienced when we were speaking in Boston a couple of years ago. I was reminded by the Holy Spirit while watching that God loves those angry Castro residents as much as He loves any of us. I hope all Christians who watch this footage remember that.
    reply
  • Randy

    7 months ago

    Very true Alan. I hope we all remember that each time these types of things happen. Thanks for leaving a comment :-)
    reply
  • Alan Chambers

    7 months ago

    Wow is right. That video was seriously disturbing similar to what some of us experienced when we were speaking in Boston a couple of years ago. I was reminded by the Holy Spirit while watching that God loves those angry Castro residents as much as He loves any of us. I hope all Christians who watch this footage remember that.
    reply
  • Randy

    7 months ago

    Very true Alan. I hope we all remember that each time these types of things happen. Thanks for leaving a comment :-)
    reply
  • Shannon

    7 months ago

    Hi Randy - I just wanted to add that we are to love the people and hate the spirit behind them as Christians. I work in the Palm Springs area and you really have to be on your toes here. Thanks for the blog. ;)
    reply
  • Randy

    7 months ago

    Thank you for your comment Shannon. I pray you will have the grace to "stay on your toes" and love your neighbors.
    reply
  • Shannon

    7 months ago

    Hi Randy - I just wanted to add that we are to love the people and hate the spirit behind them as Christians. I work in the Palm Springs area and you really have to be on your toes here. Thanks for the blog. ;)
    reply
  • Randy

    7 months ago

    Thank you for your comment Shannon. I pray you will have the grace to "stay on your toes" and love your neighbors.
    reply

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