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"I am so encouraged by what I have seen take place over the past 8 -10 years. Unfortunately, I think we are reaping the consequences of bad decisions made 30+ years ago."
Here, here. As an out, non-Christian lesbian with a beloved wife of 16 years (wow, how did that happen?) and a gorgeous daughter, I'm not sure we have much in common. But I couldn't agree more with your statement. Whatever disagreements I may have with the ex-gay lifestyle you lead, you're honest and forthright, and you hurt no one. My heart goes out to both Ray and his wife and kids, whom he has profoundly deceived and wounded. But who knows, if he was 25 today, if he wouldn't have made the choices you've made, and saved everyone a lot of misery? You and Mike and College Jay have really given me respect for a new class of ex-gay: not someone who promises unrealistic, immediate (and often false) change, but Christians with stong beliefs who are willing to slug it out, day by day, for what they believe in, without feeling the need to lie to their church, lie to their colleagues, and lie to their wives.
Nick: " And the second is the tragic result of following the hollow promise that "embracing" a gay identity will lead to happiness."
And as a corollary, as much as I admire Randy and Mike and Jay, I feel strongly that ex-gays shouldn't imply that embracing a gay identity is a hollow promise for happiness. *You* may not be happy being gay, but I have a wonderful life, and wouldn't change it a whit. For Ray, embracing a gay identity certainly *may* lead to real, deep happiness, as it does for thousands of gays in this country. But if you are one of the minority for whom being gay makes you miserable, then stop having gay sex and embrace your struggle like the boys I just mentioned. For many, many, many of us, acting straight when we feel gay is the hollow promise of happiness - I won't predict which camp Ray Boltz will fall into, but I wish him all the best finding out.
I appreciate your tolerance and open mind. Thank you very much.
It's obvious you already know where we disagree so no need to go into any of that. Well, except I stopped being a boy 22 years ago :). (40 now :) )
I just wanted to say thanks for being a beacon of civility on a tumultuous topic.
Thank you (no pun intended) for your leadership and voice on this topic in regards to Ray Boltz. I believe you did a wonderful job of representing the truth, with grace and compassion! I dont think it was a bad interview at all!
I have met Ray at least once, and am a huge fan. I love him, will pray for him, and believe that the work God began, he will be faithful to complete. As you know, the walk that Ray is currently walking is not the walk he may have even a year from now.
Thanks again Randy for all you do (and Exodus) as God leads you on the front line. As I have told you before - you make me proud to be apart of the body of Christ!
Blessings,
Jay
2 Cor. 5:17
I also will be watching Ray as he moves forward. People go through different "seasons" and we all need to take care.
Thanks for the words of encouragement. I don't think it was a bad interview ... just not my best. Plus, it really isn't about me. The Lord can turn all things for good.
Thanks for the response... you know, I was taken a little back by the news when I heard because the songs Ray Boltz sang have always inspired me. I don't know, I read through the Washington Blade through the link that you had given and well, I'm sad by it all. I'm just simply sad. I'm still in a state of shock.
And you are so right, it's even more sad of the fact that he felt that he couldn't be himself unless he accepted a gay identity. It's hard to go through so many years being trapped with such silence. He's done some amazing work but I can't say that his new work will be at the same level. Well, perhaps now a different crowd will relate to Ray Boltz as he sings songs about his journey "coming out" I mean, there is some obvious pain there that he has been working through and no doubt those who are working through the same issues will relate to that and find some kind of encouragement. I mean, I don't wish it upon anybody to feel absolutely alone in what they're struggling with and so it's grace and mercy that enables us to walk with each other through the challenges that do come our way.
I'm still processing. I think it will be a while before I can stop processing.
I will agree to pray with you that he would turn toward the Lord with his identity and sexuality in a way that he seemingly is not doing right now. I love that you left a comment and wanted to add a little clarification. At Exodus, we don't "convert" people out of a "lifestyle." It's more complex than those two words. We help people dealing with issues of identity, worldview and sexual stewardship. We offer our opinions and resources. It is up to the individual to apply that to their lives or not. So, ultimately we are simply conduits, not the converters :), of information and the end result is a personal decision by each individual with regard to their own life (whatever "style" or substance that entails.)
Tressa, thank you for your comment. I don't know that I have seen you around here before (forgive me if I have.) Welcome and thank you for sharing your heart.
This is part of a resounding wake-up call to the Church--it's time for transparency and grace!
However, I didn't grow up in the church and I know when I was younger it was MUCH worse than today. That's the part I can't relate to Boltz about. I see it a lot with men who have had that kind of history with cultural Christianity.
I think transparency and grace are definitely on the rise. I am so encouraged by what I have seen take place over the past 8 -10 years. Unfortunately, I think we are reaping the consequences of bad decisions made 30+ years ago.
Thank you (no pun intended) for your leadership and voice on this topic in regards to Ray Boltz. I believe you did a wonderful job of representing the truth, with grace and compassion! I dont think it was a bad interview at all!
I have met Ray at least once, and am a huge fan. I love him, will pray for him, and believe that the work God began, he will be faithful to complete. As you know, the walk that Ray is currently walking is not the walk he may have even a year from now.
Thanks again Randy for all you do (and Exodus) as God leads you on the front line. As I have told you before - you make me proud to be apart of the body of Christ!
Blessings,
Jay
2 Cor. 5:17
When I hear you use the term "gay worldview" I have to admit I am confused by what that term means for you. I would really value some clarity about that. I could guess as to what that means or what I think you mean by it, but I would rather have it defined from your perspective.
-Joe
For an anchor in context for here though:
world·view (wûrld'vyōō') Pronunciation Key
n. ...
1. The overall perspective from which one sees and interprets the world.
2. A collection of beliefs about life and the universe held by an individual or a group.
"worldview." Online Etymology Dictionary. Douglas Harper, Historian. 16 Sep. 2008. Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/worldvie...>
I believe that identifying as gay has a default assumed set of beliefs on many things including how to view the same sex, opposite sex and in some cases who God is or isn't. I believe that co-identifying with others who are gay will also shape or influence what you view as social justice issues, public policy goals and how tolerance and acceptance is truly expressed.
For most I have met, and in my own past, I found that being "gay" is somehow attached to everything they do or believe. It becomes a life-filter in a way. While opinions run the range of issues within the gay community, there is still a default set of "worldview" issues that are inherent for most. Examples: "I'm born this way" "being gay is not a choice" "I should be able to marry my partner" and many others.
I don't mean it in a negative way, just a descriptive way.
It's odd to me that for many of those who have embraced their gay community don't want to admit that a general worldview exists at some level for that community. It exists for every other community and I wonder why some are so offended by someone acknowledging a gay worldview/ideology exists.
If I get all this correctly, you are saying there exists a lens through which people who identify as gay see certain issues like the origins of homosexuality, the place of gender in society and how to define god. I also hear you saying that you believe that even those who do not identify as gay, but identify as supporters also have a certain ideology that might fit under the blanket of "gay worldview".
I also hear you feel surprised that many GLBT folks do want to identify with this or that is someway the appear "offended" when someone claims this worldview exists. Hopefully, I understand what this means for you.
Assuming that I understand correctly, I might say that many gays and lesbians may not be "offended" at the idea such a thing exists, but more afraid of what they are agreeing exists. I can't say that before this, I fully understood the intentions of those who used this term. I admit, like most, I assumed it to be a negative remark. I would suggest that many gay people deny it exists because they don't know what it is or what it means coming from people they assume to be judging them.
I think the reactions of gay people could be different if they knew what this "worldview" meant to you. Most of us learned what a worldview is in Philosophy class, but that is not the same as knowing how it applies to this. It is also not the same as knowing what it means to someone who they already assume is against them. (regardless if they are or are not).
I might also add that many gays and lesbians don't have a "community" so when the term is used, it doesn't fit them. I am one of those people who doesn't really associate myself with "the community". I don't go to pride festivals, I don't go to gay bars, I don't have many gay friends. So I too, roll my eyes when I hear statements that refer to the gay community. Unlike many other communities, gay people can be hidden without a community to cling to.
-Joe
Thanks for the response... you know, I was taken a little back by the news when I heard because the songs Ray Boltz sang have always inspired me. I don't know, I read through the Washington Blade through the link that you had given and well, I'm sad by it all. I'm just simply sad. I'm still in a state of shock.
And you are so right, it's even more sad of the fact that he felt that he couldn't be himself unless he accepted a gay identity. It's hard to go through so many years being trapped with such silence. He's done some amazing work but I can't say that his new work will be at the same level. Well, perhaps now a different crowd will relate to Ray Boltz as he sings songs about his journey "coming out" I mean, there is some obvious pain there that he has been working through and no doubt those who are working through the same issues will relate to that and find some kind of encouragement. I mean, I don't wish it upon anybody to feel absolutely alone in what they're struggling with and so it's grace and mercy that enables us to walk with each other through the challenges that do come our way.
I'm still processing. I think it will be a while before I can stop processing.
It's disappointing that you're unwilling to accept Ray Boltz's testimony that he sincerely tried everything in his 30-year struggle to deal with his sexuality. Besides joining an Exodus-affiliated group, what would convince you that Boltz sincerely followed the 'difficult road'? How do youknow he didn't get out of his head and relate to people honestly?
What makes you believe that Boltz has not considered or otherwise rejected your and other ex-gays' testimony? For some odd reason, you seem to be taking Boltz's testimony as a personal attack against you and yet I'm not aware of any Boltz comment attacking the ex-gay movement.
More disturbingly, you seem to be truly dismissive of Boltz and the many (if not most) people who have attempted some type of ex-gay path and have concluded the path is unfulfilling or harmful. Instead of questioning former ex-gays' sincerity and faith, why not take their testimony and reflect on their experiences? Certainly, Boltz's testimony that he tried to live as an ex-gay man, but eventually found himself depressed and hopeless isa familiar story for many former ex-gay participants.
I never attacked Boltz and said I don't know what he did or didn't do. I then shared *my* experience. I wasn't being dismissive but responding with the experience of my own journey.
I am not criticizing him but I do disagree with his decision and have had a much different experience than he has. The resource that brought me to this better place in my life was an Exodus referral. It's not exploiting an opportunity, it's speaking relevant information to a subject that was approached by others first.
I won't be silent. My testimony is as real as Ray's whether you accept that or not. As I have stated many times before, I was out of the closet when I embraced a gay identity and today, sixteen years later, I refuse to be put into one created by your false assumptions. I won't be silent about the truth of my life and the blessings Exodus has been to me long before I ever went to work for them.
I'm speaking as a bit of an outsider here, even more of an outsider than you (since I was never part of the "gay community"). But here are my two cents, and I think they're worth something. I don't think the gay community doesn't want to admit that a general worldview exists among them. I think that the main thing is they don't want YOU to define what their worldview is. It's fine to say that there's a unifying ideology. It's NOT fine to say what that ideology is when there are people in the community (of which you aren't a part anymore, remember?) who tell you otherwise. You don't get to make up those definitions and claim them as fact.
I was once a part of the gay community and deal with some facet of that community quite often. I believe I have a valid perspective and will make my opinions known. My intent is not to anger but I am not going to be silent over an issue that profoundly impacted my life and concerns the area of ministry I am called too.
This is part of a resounding wake-up call to the Church--it's time for transparency and grace!
I also will be watching Ray as he moves forward. People go through different "seasons" and we all need to take care.
Thanks for the words of encouragement. I don't think it was a bad interview ... just not my best. Plus, it really isn't about me. The Lord can turn all things for good.
I will agree to pray with you that he would turn toward the Lord with his identity and sexuality in a way that he seemingly is not doing right now. I love that you left a comment and wanted to add a little clarification. At Exodus, we don't "convert" people out of a "lifestyle." It's more complex than those two words. We help people dealing with issues of identity, worldview and sexual stewardship. We offer our opinions and resources. It is up to the individual to apply that to their lives or not. So, ultimately we are simply conduits, not the converters :), of information and the end result is a personal decision by each individual with regard to their own life (whatever "style" or substance that entails.)
Tressa, thank you for your comment. I don't know that I have seen you around here before (forgive me if I have.) Welcome and thank you for sharing your heart.
However, I didn't grow up in the church and I know when I was younger it was MUCH worse than today. That's the part I can't relate to Boltz about. I see it a lot with men who have had that kind of history with cultural Christianity.
I think transparency and grace are definitely on the rise. I am so encouraged by what I have seen take place over the past 8 -10 years. Unfortunately, I think we are reaping the consequences of bad decisions made 30+ years ago.
I am very saddened by Ray's direction. I am not surprised. However, I am grieving with the many that are affected by his direction and choice. My heart goes out to his wife, children, extended family members and fans. WOW! What a mess just one man's decision can make in this life.
It is a good minder for me, my staff and others I know who have struggled with SSA. Our choices in life will matter. I am also dealing with a personal situation with a man I used to minister to and serve who is now leading a “gay” church. Very sad situation.
It is not how we start this race / relationship with Christ that matters, but how we finish. He who overcomes will be clothed in white raiment and shall receive a crown, whom the Lord gives to those who LOVE HIM. The beginning of wisdom - the fear of the Lord, is never apart of the “gay gospel.” The teaching of covenant is foreign to most, and it is a social message. Therefore what is taught is not the gospel of Jesus Christ, but is based upon traditions of men, and doctrines of churches. There will be a great falling away of many in the days to come. The Scriptures are clear about this fact, and we should mourn; but we need to be prepared, we cannot lose heart and yet we should not be surprised any more.
I have been asked the question several times, "why! - how can this happen?"
Bottom line, (but not to be too over simplistic), this is an issue of faith and what one will believe in their core, in the secret world of their private thoughts. Faith is so ambiguous - it doesn't have handles on it. Yet it is simple.
It really is an issue of unbelief, and people embracing another message/gospel. This deception gives way when the Word of God is not implanted to save - deliver the mind / soul of a believer. We must be consecrated believers and not just mental believers. This is a relational gospel of humility and honesty that gives the believer “power” – grace to overcome.
This false message has teachers willing to comfort the desires of the afflicted to embrace their homosexuality. I have noticed that there is no cross or dying to self in their message. It is the believer of mental ascent, the believing of historical facts and the desire for a social group. The devil believes in Jesus. Oh yes, Satan knows Jesus well, yet the devil is not going to spend eternity with the Church. This is indeed a sad day, and I truly hope Ray, and others like him who I love dearly, come to their senses. I have already prayed for him and his family. No doubt there is a real hardening of the heart that takes place with those who once actually walked in Christian circles and then they embrace a gay gospel. It makes you wonder what kind of isolation and fantasy Ray and others live in their secret world before they actually embrace their homosexuality. I know first hand that those who I have seen fall away have another gospel message and become religious or completely give up on Christianity and become mockers. I have wept hard. I have seen this first hand several times now. There are several other key elements I have not mentioned; like the very unpopular elements of dying to self, living in transparent community and willing to live by faith regardless of feelings, but continuing to live in the enjoyment of Christ. Spiritual warfare is another subject as well; can't hardly talk about that without the mockers coming out in legions.
Thank you for stand strong! Thank you for pressing in! You are loved!
That's why I like ya'. Thanks for adding your thoughts. I hadn't even thought about satan, the end of the world and the falling away of the saints until you came along. :)
I am glad I don't smoke anymore but I wonder if I will be able to go to sleep now :).
The reason I mentioned so much about the distorted gospel and the last days in my last post was what I had read on Ray Boltz's site. He is seems to be embracing the gay gospel. It is so sad to actually know the TRUTH and have people fall away in deception. It truly breaks my heart. I want to help by giving some answers, perhaps to no avail out here.
Cheryl, I love that verse and believe that verse. Fortunately or unfortunately I have had the opportunity to experience a lot of personal loss and grief as well. I am thankful that the tears are being bottled up in Heaven. It will be all worth it!
I just read over some of the posts above.
Again, it is apparent that there are many people who struggle with SSA, or who have embrace homosexuality - a gay identity who are not Biblically literate and who have not enjoyed an intimate relationship with Christ to bring a revelation. It makes sense that they would not understand your position Randy. It is very sad.
When I hear you use the term "gay worldview" I have to admit I am confused by what that term means for you. I would really value some clarity about that. I could guess as to what that means or what I think you mean by it, but I would rather have it defined from your perspective.
-Joe
(1) spending the rest of your life trying to persuade yourself and everyone else that you’re straight, or
(2) acknowledging that you’re “same-sex attractedâ€, but spending the rest of your life fretting over it and telling yourself that it would be better if you weren’t.
Either way, it’s a waste of a life.
2) I can assure you I am neither fretting or a waste.
But thanks for the comment.
For an anchor in context for here though:
n. ...
1. The overall perspective from which one sees and interprets the world.
2. A collection of beliefs about life and the universe held by an individual or a group.
"worldview." Online Etymology Dictionary. Douglas Harper, Historian. 16 Sep. 2008. <Dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/worldvie...>
I believe that identifying as gay has a default assumed set of beliefs on many things including how to view the same sex, opposite sex and in some cases who God is or isn't. I believe that co-identifying with others who are gay will also shape or influence what you view as social justice issues, public policy goals and how tolerance and acceptance is truly expressed.
For most I have met, and in my own past, I found that being "gay" is somehow attached to everything they do or believe. It becomes a life-filter in a way. While opinions run the range of issues within the gay community, there is still a default set of "worldview" issues that are inherent for most. Examples: "I'm born this way" "being gay is not a choice" "I should be able to marry my partner" and many others.
I don't mean it in a negative way, just a descriptive way.
It's odd to me that for many of those who have embraced their gay community don't want to admit that a general worldview exists at some level for that community. It exists for every other community and I wonder why some are so offended by someone acknowledging a gay worldview/ideology exists.
It's disappointing that you're unwilling to accept Ray Boltz's testimony that he sincerely tried everything in his 30-year struggle to deal with his sexuality. Besides joining an Exodus-affiliated group, what would convince you that Boltz sincerely followed the 'difficult road'? How do youknow he didn't get out of his head and relate to people honestly?
What makes you believe that Boltz has not considered or otherwise rejected your and other ex-gays' testimony? For some odd reason, you seem to be taking Boltz's testimony as a personal attack against you and yet I'm not aware of any Boltz comment attacking the ex-gay movement.
More disturbingly, you seem to be truly dismissive of Boltz and the many (if not most) people who have attempted some type of ex-gay path and have concluded the path is unfulfilling or harmful. Instead of questioning former ex-gays' sincerity and faith, why not take their testimony and reflect on their experiences? Certainly, Boltz's testimony that he tried to live as an ex-gay man, but eventually found himself depressed and hopeless isa familiar story for many former ex-gay participants.
I'm speaking as a bit of an outsider here, even more of an outsider than you (since I was never part of the "gay community"). But here are my two cents, and I think they're worth something. I don't think the gay community doesn't want to admit that a general worldview exists among them. I think that the main thing is they don't want YOU to define what their worldview is. It's fine to say that there's a unifying ideology. It's NOT fine to say what that ideology is when there are people in the community (of which you aren't a part anymore, remember?) who tell you otherwise. You don't get to make up those definitions and claim them as fact.
I never attacked Boltz and said I don't know what he did or didn't do. I then shared *my* experience. I wasn't being dismissive but responding with the experience of my own journey.
I was once a part of the gay community and deal with some facet of that community quite often. I believe I have a valid perspective and will make my opinions known. My intent is not to anger but I am not going to be silent over an issue that profoundly impacted my life and concerns the area of ministry I am called too.
1) Thinking, relating and living beyond labels like "straight" and "gay" and seeking the mystery of what it means to be alive in Christ.
2) Being at peace with the fact that our feelings are sometimes in conflict with who God wants us to be, and knowing there's grace to struggle and room to grow.
And by the way change does happen...
If I get all this correctly, you are saying there exists a lens through which people who identify as gay see certain issues like the origins of homosexuality, the place of gender in society and how to define god. I also hear you saying that you believe that even those who do not identify as gay, but identify as supporters also have a certain ideology that might fit under the blanket of "gay worldview".
I also hear you feel surprised that many GLBT folks do want to identify with this or that is someway the appear "offended" when someone claims this worldview exists. Hopefully, I understand what this means for you.
Assuming that I understand correctly, I might say that many gays and lesbians may not be "offended" at the idea such a thing exists, but more afraid of what they are agreeing exists. I can't say that before this, I fully understood the intentions of those who used this term. I admit, like most, I assumed it to be a negative remark. I would suggest that many gay people deny it exists because they don't know what it is or what it means coming from people they assume to be judging them.
I think the reactions of gay people could be different if they knew what this "worldview" meant to you. Most of us learned what a worldview is in Philosophy class, but that is not the same as knowing how it applies to this. It is also not the same as knowing what it means to someone who they already assume is against them. (regardless if they are or are not).
I might also add that many gays and lesbians don't have a "community" so when the term is used, it doesn't fit them. I am one of those people who doesn't really associate myself with "the community". I don't go to pride festivals, I don't go to gay bars, I don't have many gay friends. So I too, roll my eyes when I hear statements that refer to the gay community. Unlike many other communities, gay people can be hidden without a community to cling to.
-Joe
I am very saddened by Ray's direction. I am not surprised. However, I am grieving with the many that are affected by his direction and choice. My heart goes out to his wife, children, extended family members and fans. WOW! What a mess just one man's decision can make in this life.
It is a good minder for me, my staff and others I know who have struggled with SSA. Our choices in life will matter. I am also dealing with a personal situation with a man I used to minister to and serve who is now leading a “gay†church. Very sad situation.
It is not how we start this race / relationship with Christ that matters, but how we finish. He who overcomes will be clothed in white raiment and shall receive a crown, whom the Lord gives to those who LOVE HIM. The beginning of wisdom - the fear of the Lord, is never apart of the “gay gospel.†The teaching of covenant is foreign to most, and it is a social message. Therefore what is taught is not the gospel of Jesus Christ, but is based upon traditions of men, and doctrines of churches. There will be a great falling away of many in the days to come. The Scriptures are clear about this fact, and we should mourn; but we need to be prepared, we cannot lose heart and yet we should not be surprised any more.
I have been asked the question several times, "why! - how can this happen?"
Bottom line, (but not to be too over simplistic), this is an issue of faith and what one will believe in their core, in the secret world of their private thoughts. Faith is so ambiguous - it doesn't have handles on it. Yet it is simple.
It really is an issue of unbelief, and people embracing another message/gospel. This deception gives way when the Word of God is not implanted to save - deliver the mind / soul of a believer. We must be consecrated believers and not just mental believers. This is a relational gospel of humility and honesty that gives the believer “power†â€" grace to overcome.
This false message has teachers willing to comfort the desires of the afflicted to embrace their homosexuality. I have noticed that there is no cross or dying to self in their message. It is the believer of mental ascent, the believing of historical facts and the desire for a social group. The devil believes in Jesus. Oh yes, Satan knows Jesus well, yet the devil is not going to spend eternity with the Church. This is indeed a sad day, and I truly hope Ray, and others like him who I love dearly, come to their senses. I have already prayed for him and his family. No doubt there is a real hardening of the heart that takes place with those who once actually walked in Christian circles and then they embrace a gay gospel. It makes you wonder what kind of isolation and fantasy Ray and others live in their secret world before they actually embrace their homosexuality. I know first hand that those who I have seen fall away have another gospel message and become religious or completely give up on Christianity and become mockers. I have wept hard. I have seen this first hand several times now. There are several other key elements I have not mentioned; like the very unpopular elements of dying to self, living in transparent community and willing to live by faith regardless of feelings, but continuing to live in the enjoyment of Christ. Spiritual warfare is another subject as well; can't hardly talk about that without the mockers coming out in legions.
Thank you for stand strong! Thank you for pressing in! You are loved!
That's why I like ya'. Thanks for adding your thoughts. I hadn't even thought about satan, the end of the world and the falling away of the saints until you came along. :)
I am glad I don't smoke anymore but I wonder if I will be able to go to sleep now :).
The reason I mentioned so much about the distorted gospel and the last days in my last post was what I had read on Ray Boltz's site. He is seems to be embracing the gay gospel. It is so sad to actually know the TRUTH and have people fall away in deception. It truly breaks my heart. I want to help by giving some answers, perhaps to no avail out here.
Cheryl, I love that verse and believe that verse. Fortunately or unfortunately I have had the opportunity to experience a lot of personal loss and grief as well. I am thankful that the tears are being bottled up in Heaven. It will be all worth it!
I just read over some of the posts above.
Again, it is apparent that there are many people who struggle with SSA, or who have embrace homosexuality - a gay identity who are not Biblically literate and who have not enjoyed an intimate relationship with Christ to bring a revelation. It makes sense that they would not understand your position Randy. It is very sad.
I'm confused. So you used to be "gay-identified" but now you're "straight-identified but still homosexual"? I don't meant to sound sarcastic; the message of Exodus has been known to be extremely Orwellian and unsure of itself, so I was wondering if you could clarify.
I am not gay, ex-gay or straight. You can keep your labels. I am a Christian named Randy Thomas. You can find my testimony in several different places. There are many things in my life that are much more important to me than my sexuality but suffice it to say that I was 100% homosexual sixteen years ago. Today my sexuality is strongly heterosexual but that does not mean I am somehow above temptation. Even so, those temptations are rare and don't determine who I am, how I behave, or what my goals in life are.
Thanks for asking.
I don't see anything extreme, Orwellian or unsure about that.
Are you under the impression that those of us who identify as gay or lesbian somehow define ourselves by our sexuality or that we determine our behaviors or even our goals in life? I am really unclear as to what you are saying here, not so much about yourself (but yes about you) but about what you are claiming about those who do identify in the ways you did 16 years ago. Would you be willing to clarify for me what exactly it is you mean by your words above in regards to those who are gay identified?
I believe that anyone's primary identity (in any manner) is indicative of their default worldview in which most things (not all) will emanate from. It's the Proverbial, "as a man thinks so he is" principle.
Example: I am a Christian. I am also a Supervisor, Uncle, Friend, Son and other things. All the different titles and positions have different goals and variables. Even so, spoken or not consciously recognized in every moment ... I want my primary identity to permeate all of the manifestations of my life. Most people who primarily embrace and identify as gay, that I knew or know, that is their primary life filter. They don't simply describe themselves as a Christian, they are a gay Christian, that goes to a gay church, or a gay artist, a gay writer, a gay Republican, a gay Buddhist, a gay activist, an openly gay politician, gay lawyer, gay doctor, gay actor, gay singer and it carries on into media and entertainment as well, you have gay blogs, gay newspapers, gay cable channels, gay radio shows ... on and on. If the primary identity wasn't "gay" there wouldn't be all these things specifically geared toward being gay and all of those things bring definition and common understanding OR they wouldn't be as successful as they are.
It's not just a gay thing though. You could put Christian in front of all those titles above and it would be the exact same point I am trying to make. I think God's creative desire was for us to have a primary identity that manifested in different giftings and attributes. I believe that primary identity was supposed to be based in Him but we (humanity) have decided to become our own sufficiency and lean upon our own deductive reasoning without ever really turning to the God who has His own mind and opinion. He cares about who we are and what we do with our lives.
We can't escape the need for something to bring the unique definition to our lives that only our personal identity can bring.
I am not criticizing him but I do disagree with his decision and have had a much different experience than he has. The resource that brought me to this better place in my life was an Exodus referral. It's not exploiting an opportunity, it's speaking relevant information to a subject that was approached by others first.
I won't be silent. My testimony is as real as Ray's whether you accept that or not. As I have stated many times before, I was out of the closet when I embraced a gay identity and today, sixteen years later, I refuse to be put into one created by your false assumptions and stigma. I won't be silent about the truth of my life and the blessings Exodus has been to me long before I ever went to work for them.
You do realize that Christians do the same thing you are stating about gay people. There are Christian Bloggers, Christian Artists, Christian Actors, Christian Doctors, etc...So I could throw the same thing back at ya, that most Christians I know (evangelical more so) also define themselves the same way you describe that gay people do.
My primary Identity is that I am human. I happen to be a former christian, a musician, a piano player, a photographer etc...I usually don't add the word gay to most of that anymore than I would add any other identity because I think it clouds what people see in me.
The French author Thomas d'Ansembourg has an interesting chapter in his book, Being Genuine devoted to labels. He explains how we have this tendency to stop at the label we come up with rather than see deeper into the person for who they are. He explains as we are walking down the street and we see an old women dressed raggedly, we stop at the label we have given her rather than seeing that she might not have done laundry yet. The same might be true of a young kid with spiked blue hair, we stop at the label of "punk" and never see the brother, son, artist, future math genius, etc... I really felt connected to that idea when I read it. Of course, his point when writing it is that we need to stop ourselves from "stopping" at just the label we give others or ourselves and go further to see the human. It is a return to humanity!
Just some random thoughts.
I agree with everything you wrote I have never used "gay identified" or "gay worldview" in a pejorative sense but others always assume it is. Christian identified doesn't flow as well but it would be parallel. Christian worldview is a given ... totally agree.
But, one of my secondary identification attributes is evangelical so ... come back to Jesus Joe.
::: smile :::
I apologize if you think I was putting words in your mouth. The quotation marks were more so for me to wrap my head around this. I've heard those exact terms used by some Exodus ministers whom I've spoken to, so I guess it was subconscious. You say that your sexuality is strongly heterosexual despite the occasional temptation (I assume you mean homosexual temptation). So wouldn't that mean you have a bisexual orientation?
I guess I'll take your word for it that Exodus isn't intentionally vague with its message. Although, I'd be interested to know what Orwell would think about the term "secondary identification attribute" and someone who says, "You can keep your labels" right before using his name and the word "Christian" to, well, label himself.
1. I would love to know which Exodus leader says that. I have never heard that and I know pretty much all of them.
2. Bi-sexual? Clinically that might be appropriate but before you go there with "maybe you were always bi" let me just say I was 100% homosexual sixteen years ago and that was the only thing I was confident about in my messed up life. Today I would say my sexual orientation is on the opposite end of the spectrum and almost exclusively heterosexual (aside from the stray memory or fleeting temptation.) That's just one of the many major changes in my life.
3. Exodus isn't vague with our message. It's clear enough that our phones are ringing off the hook day in and day out, we have over 200 Member Agencies across Canada and the United States and are known throughout the world with people who understand what we are trying to do very well.
Regardless of the confusion gay activists try to spin into what we do.
4. I actually learned those lessons about identity a long time ago in Narcotics Anonymous and again later with a Secular humanist psychologist. I have found they do not conflict with scripture. If you find them Orwellian, i don't think you can just pin that on those "groupthinking Exodizers." (the quotation marks are me just wrapping my head around what you seem to be saying ::: grin :::.) Those are very basic concepts of personal and sexual identity.
5. You are right I should have said, "you can keep your sexual labels because I don't want the entirety of who I am pigeonholed into one of three politically correct sexually based categories."
I'm confused. So you used to be "gay-identified" but now you're "straight-identified but still homosexual"? I don't meant to sound sarcastic; the message of Exodus has been known to be extremely Orwellian and unsure of itself, so I was wondering if you could clarify.
I am not gay, ex-gay or straight. You can keep your labels. I am a Christian named Randy Thomas. You can find my testimony in several different places. There are many things in my life that are much more important to me than my sexuality but suffice it to say that I was 100% homosexual sixteen years ago. Today my sexuality is strongly heterosexual but that does not mean I am somehow above temptation. Even so, those temptations are rare and don't determine who I am, how I behave, or what my goals in life are.
Thanks for asking.
I don't see anything extreme, Orwellian or unsure about that.
Are you under the impression that those of us who identify as gay or lesbian somehow define ourselves by our sexuality or that we determine our behaviors or even our goals in life? I am really unclear as to what you are saying here, not so much about yourself (but yes about you) but about what you are claiming about those who do identify in the ways you did 16 years ago. Would you be willing to clarify for me what exactly it is you mean by your words above in regards to those who are gay identified?
I believe that anyone's primary identity (in any manner) is indicative of their default worldview in which most things (not all) will emanate from. It's the Proverbial, "as a man thinks so he is" principle.
Example: I am a Christian. I am also a Supervisor, Uncle, Friend, Son. All the different titles and positions have different goals and variables. Even so, spoken or not consciously recognized in every moment ... I want my primary identity to permeate all of the manifestations of my life. Most people who primarily embrace and identify as gay, that I knew or know, that is their primary life filter. They don't simply describe themselves as a Christian, they are a gay Christian, that goes to a gay church, or a gay artist, a gay writer, a gay Republican, a gay Buddhist ... on and on.
I will say that I see a lot of rejection of that label among the younger generation who think I am crazy but hate being called "gay" even though they openly embrace homosexual relationships.
It's not just a gay thing though. I think God's creative desire was for us to have a primary identity that manifested in different giftings and attributes. I believe that primary identity was supposed to be based in Him but we (humanity) have decided to become our own sufficiency. Even so, we can't escape the need for something to bring the unique definition to our lives that only our personal identity can bring.
You do realize that Christians do the same thing you are stating about gay people. There are Christian Bloggers, Christian Artists, Christian Actors, Christian Doctors, etc...So I could throw the same thing back at ya, that most Christians I know (evangelical more so) also define themselves the same way you describe that gay people do.
My primary Identity is that I am human. I happen to be a former christian, a musician, a piano player, a photographer etc...I usually don't add the word gay to most of that anymore than I would add any other identity because I think it clouds what people see in me.
The French author Thomas d'Ansembourg has an interesting chapter in his book, Being Genuine devoted to labels. He explains how we have this tendency to stop at the label we come up with rather than see deeper into the person for who they are. He explains as we are walking down the street and we see an old women dressed raggedly, we stop at the label we have given her rather than seeing that she might not have done laundry yet. The same might be true of a young kid with spiked blue hair, we stop at the label of "punk" and never see the brother, son, artist, future math genius, etc... I really felt connected to that idea when I read it. Of course, his point when writing it is that we need to stop ourselves from "stopping" at just the label we give others or ourselves and go further to see the human. It is a return to humanity!
Just some random thoughts.
I agree with everything you wrote I have never used "gay identified" or "gay worldview" in a pejorative sense but others always assume it is. Christian identified doesn't flow as well but it would be parallel. Christian worldview is a given ... totally agree.
But, one of my secondary identification attributes is evangelical so ... come back to Jesus Joe.
::: smile :::
I apologize if you think I was putting words in your mouth. The quotation marks were more so for me to wrap my head around this. I've heard those exact terms used by some Exodus ministers whom I've spoken to, so I guess it was subconscious. You say that your sexuality is strongly heterosexual despite the occasional temptation (I assume you mean homosexual temptation). So wouldn't that mean you have a bisexual orientation?
I guess I'll take your word for it that Exodus isn't intentionally vague with its message. Although, I'd be interested to know what Orwell would think about the term "secondary identification attribute" and someone who says, "You can keep your labels" right before using his name and the word "Christian" to, well, label himself.
1. I would love to know which Exodus leader says that. I have never heard that and I know pretty much all of them.
2. Bi-sexual? Clinically that might be appropriate but before you go there with "maybe you were always bi" let me just say I was 100% homosexual sixteen years ago and that was the only thing I found peace in my life about. Today I would say my sexual orientation is on the opposite end of the spectrum and almost exclusively heterosexual (aside from the stray memory or fleeting temptation.) That's just one of the many major changes in my life.
3. Exodus isn't vague with our message. It's clear enough that our phones are ringing off the hook day in and day out, we have over 200 Member Agencies across Canada and the United States and are known throughout the world with people who understand what we are trying to do very well.
Regardless of the confusion gay activists try to spin into what we do.
4. I actually learned those lessons about identify a long time ago in Narcotics Anonymous and again later with a Secular humanist psychologist. I have found they do not conflict with scripture. If you find them Orwellian, i don't think you can just pin that on those "groupthinking Exodizers." (the quotation marks are me just wrapping my head around what you seem to be saying.) Those are very basic concepts of personal and sexual identity.
5. You are right I should have said, "you can keep your sexual labels because i don't want the entirety of who I am pigeonholed into one of three politically correct sexually based categories."
This, I believe, is part of a wake-up call to the Body of Christ. We need to be living in radical transparency with one another, so that these struggles do not fester over the years, growing stronger until they overcome us.
"Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective." James 5:16
Very very true Mike.
This, I believe, is part of a wake-up call to the Body of Christ. We need to be living in radical transparency with one another, so that these struggles do not fester over the years, growing stronger until they overcome us.
"Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective." James 5:16
I've heard it said a million times, "The opposite of homosexuality isn't heterosexuality, it's holiness."
So be it, but that's not a solution, it's the same problem. True Love IS holiness. Whether God likes it or not.
You, as a "Church," can love me, in my "celibacy" all you wish, but at the end of the day, I still go home alone and lonely, unnecessarily, and all because of some ARBITRARY Biblical rule?
Some of us aren't strong enough to live our lives alone - to live our lives without even the hope of not living alone - or to live with ONLY the hope of "maybe" "someday"...That's not fair, but so be it even still.
What's worse, is that to be attracted to women would be to give up my own personhood. And to ask me to do that, is really reeeally not fair, and I haven't heard either one of you address that point yet.
Point being, I don't WANT to be attracted to women, even if the option was guaranteed, I would lose my soul in the process. Technically I AM a woman (with a guy's body). Call it confusion all you like, but then why is the acceptance of that "sinful," and how is it sinful?
How is it BAD? is the question.
My views of God are much more liberal than yours', I've outgrown the Bible, if you will (which is possible, "ask and you shall receive"-wise), but as far as I can tell, you're offering nothing more than a successful life of loneliness, with the possible hope of finding love through (some degree of) heterosexuality.
And I'm not just talking Ray Boltz here, this is what you guys are always saying - (without actually saying so).
None of which means I'm not going to eat you alive the next chance I get, but can you at least see how people like me get frustrated with so much of your language (or lack thereof)?
-Patrick
... even though your overall estimation of our methods, beliefs and goals are completely off base.
I was more lonely in the gay community I was a part of than I have ever been as a Christian living beyond the gay ideology I once embraced. There is many reasons for that, not just the community. But, today, I have a God I can commune with and a Church I love. I have friends, close friends and a community that includes all kinds of people who believe in all kinds of things. I am content and even very happy today whether I ever marry or not.
I do my best to live in the present, not in the "what if's." I live by faith and not by demanding God meet my needs my way.
I have also found intimacy is manifested in many ways that are not romantic or erotic. Plus, many of us seeking a life beyond homosexuality do end up in good healthy marriages that then also produce children and grandchildren. I might be a long term single person but I am surrounded by love and friendship. I am content with my life and when it comes to my life, I don't really need you to be content with my choices or even believe me.
Your putting words in our mouth and arguing from silence instead of looking at a very clear position and testimony and accepting it for what it is. I think you are closed minded to the reality that people like myself exist, life is better because of the path we have chosen and we don't need your approval or understanding to live it. It would be nice and welcomed if you could tolerate what you don't personally accept but your history has shown that you are not inclined toward that disposition.
I pray at some point you will get past your hatred of us whether you ever actually agree with me on this issue or not.
http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2008/09/gay-senior... <-- is a gay blog.
Whether God likes it or not?!?! God IS it. He IS True Love. God is the definition of Love. He is Love in it's perfect form. You are right, True Love Is Holiness. Although, I don't believe you meant your words with the True definition in mind, even if you did capitalize the 'L' of Love.
Sorry Cheryl, I have a bit of a dry wit sometimes. I’ll try not to come across so flip next time. : ) And I agree with your definition - I emphasize things the wrong way all the time, I’m constantly working on that, but sorry for that too.
In my post, I was emphasizing ‘true love’ in the romantic way we humans tend to think of it. But God’s True Love? “Agape” seems to come closest, if not IT itself, but I’m already OT (and I’m a philosopher at heart) so, I better quit here.
-Patrick
No worries, I was not offended. If I may, I would like to challenge your understanding of God and Love. I desire you, and so many others, to understand that the Love of God is extraordinarily romantic. The healthiest of human romances is only a shadow of what romance with God is like. I have desperately desired to be married at times. The desperate is gone when I am engaged in romance with God. Continually hopeful but completely fulfilled. Should I never marry I still have more joy than I could have imagined and far more than I ever deserved. I desire for you to discover your own romance with God. It's wild and not something I know how to describe in a few words on a comment box.
No worries, I was not offended.”
Thank you, thank God.
“If I may, I would like to challenge your understanding of God and Love.”
Of course, always.
“I desire you, and so many others, to understand that the Love of God is extraordinarily romantic.”
I accept.
“The healthiest of human romances is only a shadow of what romance with God is like.”
I accept and agree.
“I have desperately desired to be married at times. The desperate is gone when I am engaged in romance with God.”
I believe you. And when I listen to Christian music, this is all true. God made the songs to show that God made the radio, and the air to carry the sound waves to our ears - and it all just fits, God is in the air.
“The healthiest of human romances is only a shadow of what romance with God is like. I have desperately desired to be married at times. The desperate is gone when I am engaged in romance with God.”
I read somewhere, “a peace so deep, not even the shadow of which touches this world.”
-
“Continually hopeful but completely fulfilled.”
I feel guilty that I can't feel that way, not even enough, because I KNOW we live in a universe where nothing bad can ever happen.
And I can’t justify my failures, because I know there are so many more who have so much more to fear than me.
“Should I never marry I still have more joy than I could have imagined and far more than I ever deserved.”
I accept what you say and I believe you.
“I desire for you to discover your own romance with God.”
Thank you.
“It's wild and not something I know how to describe in a few words on a comment box.”
I think you did pretty good.
---
Nothing bad can ever happen.
All pain and all fear could ONLY be an illusion designed for the sake of creating more HEAVEN.
Love could have no other goal than to increase itself.
---
So that would be my ‘challenge’ to you, Cheryl, could Love (God/Heaven), have any other goal, other than to increase itself?
I don’t necessarily mean that in a “challenging” way, but more as a ‘have you ever thought about it that way, way? :)
But how could we have feared the warning God gave us not to "eat of," or "understand" the knowledge of good and evil, if we had no knowledge of evil?
(I told you I was a philosopher, lol)
Thank you for your questions, Patrick, they are good ones.
"could Love (God/Heaven), have any other goal, other than to increase itself?"
The Love of God neither increases or decreases. It is complete as it is. Sometimes it feels like it increases or decreases but that is strictly related to my ability to receive His Love. I am inconsistent but my inconsistencies do not change the Love of God. He will never be less or more than He already is.
"But how could we have feared the warning God gave us not to "eat of," or "understand" the knowledge of good and evil, if we had no knowledge of evil?"
I'm not sure I understand this question. At present, we have understanding of good and evil. Adam and Eve did not have understanding of good and evil prior to eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I don't know if they were afraid of the warning and I don't think it's relevant. To believe Adam and Eve had knowledge of good and evil prior to eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil is to call God a liar. I'm not willing to do that.
On a not so different note, I am amazed that you would ask a question about Adam and Eve considering how closely linked their story is with your own personal expression of feeling guilt about not experiencing complete fulfillment and continued hope! Adam and Eve's choice to disobey God has HUGE implications for those of us to follow. They could speak with God face to face, walk beside Him, experience His Love so perfectly. That's why their choice to do what He asked them not to was soooooo horrible. With all the intimate knowledge they had of God Himself, they chose not to believe Him. As a result they were seperated from Him. Because of their seperation from Him, we are also seperated from Him. This is where the term 'sin' comes in. Sin is anything that is an offence against God. In Romans it says, "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."
None of us is exempt from sin. This is where guilt comes in. We feel guilty because we should and we are. I disagree with your statement that nothig bad can ever happen because it has happened. We have chosen ourselves over true Love.
Because of God's perfect Love, He would provide every opportunity for us to return to a right relationship with Him. He came in the person of Jesus Christ. The penalty of sin is death. Not just death to our physical bodies, but death to our spirit or soul. It was Jesus who came and lived a perfect life and suffered a brutal death in order to pay the penalty of sin. If you've seen the Narnia movie 'The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe', Aslan is a Christ figure and Edmond represents the rest of us.
Now we have another choice! Do we believe Jesus? Do we accept His gift of substitution for our debt of sin? Do we surrender ourselves to His perfect Love? If yes, then what does that mean? It means that I am no longer guilty because my debt has been paid! It means that I can have a relationship with God like the one I described to you previously. It means that I can be completely fulfilled. It means that I can experience a portion of Heaven before I die. And it means that I will spend eternity with Him in Heaven.
To not choose Jesus is to continue in the choices that were made in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve. Pain and fear are not an illusion, they are a consequence of sin, of choosing something less than God. Jesus is critical! Jesus said, "I have come that you may have life and have it to the full."
This is a long story for a comment thread. But, I have lived with these Truths and found them to be real and life giving. Jesus makes sense. I do hope you consider what I've said, do your own research, ask God questions, consider a new relationship.
Thanks for the challenge, Patrick.
:::hitting the challenge ball back to Patrick's side of the court:::
[Cheryl, I’m also going to reply to your original message, to save on space, like I think Piano Man did. We’ll see where it turns up, lol]
--
Cheryl,
E: "could Love (God/Heaven), have any other goal, other than to increase itself?"
C: The Love of God neither increases or decreases. It is complete as it is. Sometimes it feels like it increases or decreases but that is strictly related to my ability to receive His Love. I am inconsistent but my inconsistencies do not change the Love of God. He will never be less or more than He already is.
-
As an avid thinker, that’s the part I don’t get. Infinity by nature -- as a concept -- is a constant state of increasing. So any God that we, or even God itself could conceive of-itself (at least any God that we could conceive of), would always always, be smack dab in the middle of infinity. If God is truly infinite, how could it ever perceive it’s own magnitude? Thus, Its goal, as Love, is to increase Itself, so as to increase It’s own awareness of its own magnitude.
I’m not necessarily saying that that infinite conscience of God doesn’t exist right now, but as a human, that’s one conundrum that I can’t seem to wrap my brain around (yet), but my curiosity will not let it go. : )
--
E: "But how could we have feared the warning God gave us not to "eat of," or "understand" the knowledge of good and evil, if we had no knowledge of evil?"
C: I'm not sure I understand this question. At present, we have understanding of good and evil. Adam and Eve did not have understanding of good and evil prior to eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I don't know if they were afraid of the warning and I don't think it's relevant. To believe Adam and Eve had knowledge of good and evil prior to eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil is to call God a liar. I'm not willing to do that.
-
I’m not suggesting God is a liar, and I do believe there was somehow a discernable “warning,” it’s just another one of those paradoxes I’m trying to figure out. Before the fall, it was Heaven all the time, we had no knowledge of the existence of what “bad” meant -- thus the “warning” not to find out about it. But at the same time, we couldn’t conceive of an experience where anything “bad” could happen. Thus, our lack of fear in learning about the meaning of evil (eating of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil).
God/Love/Heaven, always perceives good and evil in perfect balance. Parts of Its creation -- such as ours -- are capable of perceiving them separately. When I say “nothing bad can ever happen,” what I mean is that if we could see and feel and know how much “good” that that “bad” contributes to the increase in Heaven, then we will see even the bad as part as a necessary part of the GOOD. (FYI, NONE of which is any kind of promotion of causing evil or bad or harm to others!)
I’m not a big Bible reader, but I think there’s a part that says “count it all in joy,” “all things work for the glory of God,” and the ever popular, “God has a reason for everything.” Those are reflections of what I mean.
I think we are at the bottom of creational “fallen” “barrel” so to speak. I think this world was designed specifically for us to master the sensations of good and evil separately, but on a conscious level this time. So that unlike before the fall, when we were just recipients of God’s Love, this time, upon mastery, we’ll be able to generate -- and be worthy of -- directing God’s Love - fearlessly and with the full knowledge of the reality of good and evil.
--
C: On a not so different note, I am amazed that..
E: I pretty much agree with that paragraph. That’s another one of those conundrums I’m often working on -- what “life” was like before the fall. (I believe we are all eternal aspects of the consciousness of God. No beginning, no end), it’s our identities that are being defined and awakened. Like the cells of our bodies, each one unique and different, with a unique role to play in the total-consciousness (or “god” part) of our being, if you will. You could even look at the people of the Earth in the same way. Some of us are thinkers, some of us “digest” the information the world has to provide so the rest of us can understand it and absorb it, some of us are heart cells that make sure the rest of the body gets that usable information, some of us are T-cells, who make sure certain bad things NEVER happen again, and some of us are fat cells, just sitting around, without passion, absorbing everything going on around them, just incase of emergency.
You get the point, but my point is that this is our “identities,” as designed and as aspects of God that are being honed, via the challenges of this world (good and evil), to reach their fullest potential.
--
C: Pain and fear are not an illusion, they are a consequence of sin, of choosing something less than God. Jesus is critical!
E: Again, I’m not promoting or endorsing harm of and kind, and I agree that fear and pain are the consequence of sin - and are bad things to avoid and stop! But if God truly is only Love, then all creation could only come from that “substance.” (even evil is the ‘love’ of the absence of love). Point being, how would you know that fear and pain are not illusions if they are truly illusions? Point being, again, If we can see them as illusions, or ‘tests,’ per se, then we can overcome all temptation to do ever more of Gods/Love’s Will, because we will have overcome the fear of fear and pain. And that’s, of course, the example of Jesus - and where the Holy Spirit comes in. I don’t really feel comfortable talking about Jesus in public, but if the story is true (though I may interpret it much different than you), then He is apart of the Holy Spirit, which I do perceive and feel I am able to commune with at times.
--
C: …consider a new relationship.
E: To be clear, it’s not a “new” relationship I need, it’s the sustainability that’s the problem, but I’ll try.
::Thanks for the reminder::
However, dang ... that is a LONG comment. :) There is always the possibility of you turning that into a post on your own blog and posting a link to that posts page here.
Of course there is a lot on your blog that I don't appreciate but if a civil dialog is occurring I am more apt to allow the link to stand.
Oh goodie, we’re frienemies. ;)
“... it seems different for whatever reason.”
Less hateful and vindictive?
But you‘re right, I usually am hateful and vindictive.
“However, dang ... that is a LONG comment. :) There is always the possibility of you turning that into a post on your own blog and posting a link to that posts page here.
Of course there is a lot on your blog that I don't appreciate…”
I know, that’s what I thought too, but even though I have a lot of “innocent” pages, it’s too easy to click on something that would most likely be seen as offensive. Maybe I can set up another site, just for situations like this.
“but if a civil dialog is occurring I am more apt to allow the link to stand.”
I have one more long post to Piano Man Kugie. It’s perfectly civil (in effort anyway), but some of the content may be a bit “out there,” as far as beliefs and understandings go. I’m trying to be as open and honest as possible for the sake of the quality of the conversation. So that’s one reason for the length, I’m trying to over explain things in order to ensure that anything potentially offensive-sounding is not misconstrued as such. But, if you feel the need to delete my next post, I’ll accept it. I’ll be disappointed as well, but I would just ask that you at least appreciate that I put a lot of effort into ensuring that my posts here are not meant to be offensive, as I am a guest, but more importantly, that you appreciate that I don’t just throw this stuff around. This is me.
As for your blog, I don't swim around in pools full of broken glass.
I did delete your long post to Piano man knowing full well you have other avenues to communicate this to him. This is a comment section, not a rough draft for a book. Break it down or post lengthy responses on your blog. I don't want a pattern developing where the thread is completely lost to "Jamming" it with debates framed from your point of view.
And while I respect you have put a lot into them and are being honest, I think they are best served in a post on your blog and not in the middle of almost a 100 comments.
Anyway, I think maybe the whole "God is infinite" thing is something that can't be fully understood based on mathematical principles/theory, or at least math as it is known within the universe, because it doesn't seem like anyone has a coherent, widely accepted answer on what that means. (Although an alternative explanation could be that we just don't fully understand what infinite means, yet).
The other problem I think you might be running into, is that you seem to have a pastiche of ideas of what God is like, some of them True, and some of them false, drawn from various sources. The thing that I would immediately zero in on is the fact that you seem to think that Good and Evil have to be (or at least are) in perfect balance, and that Evil can contribute to the goodness of God. I know that most (if not all) of the Christian philosophers I have read pretty much reject that idea, but I don't have the ability to recreate anyone's argument here. You might look into it, though.
Orlando is very beautiful, Randy.
I continue to maintain the truth that God's Love is complete and perfect as it is and does not increase or decrease. Thank you for admitting that you are having a difficult time understanding it. I do too. A God I can fully understand is just too small. Do we try to understand more? Absolutely. Eternity will not be enough time for us to exhaust learning about Him. He's just that big. In Psalm 8 the psalmist refers to the heavens and the earth as the work of God's fingers. I don't know if you've considered the size of the universe lately, but God created it with His fingers. God can be complete Love never increasing or decreasing and be infinite at the same time because He's just that big.
Your next comment about bad and good is interesting to me. You are right, the Bible says, "Consider it pure joy when you face trials of many kinds because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance." James 1:2 and "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." Romans 8:28. I couldn't figure out which other scripture you were referring to with your 3rd example. But there is tonnes of scripture that encourage and give strength to believers who are enduring difficulty. The fact that bad can come of good is only through the grace of God. Read Romans 3. In fact, read all of Romans...you've quoted some of it:) I think Paul can answer you much better than I can.
What I do see in what you've written is an idea that righteousness ("being in accordance with what is just, honorable and free from guilt" is my Webster's dictionary definition of righteousness) can be earned; that we can overcome evil by working hard at being good. Paul also addresses this thought in Romans. The Bible is VERY clear on this point that evil is overcome only through the blood of Jesus. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Light, no one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6 "For it is by Grace you have been saved, through faith, and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph. 2:8 & 9. It is the GIFT of God. When we work to earn our righteousness then it is no longer a gift. It is wages.
Your comment, "If we can see them as illusions, or ‘tests,’ per se, then we can overcome all temptation to do ever more of Gods/Love’s Will, because we will have overcome the fear of fear and pain. And that’s, of course, the example of Jesus - and where the Holy Spirit comes in. I don’t really feel comfortable talking about Jesus in public, but if the story is true (though I may interpret it much different than you), then He is apart of the Holy Spirit, which I do perceive and feel I am able to commune with at times." made me smile. I believe you when you say that you feel you are able to perceive and commune with the Holy Spirit at times. I can see His finger prints in your questions and I believe He is calling you to know His Love and enter into a 'sustainable' relationship with Him (I saw Him in your first comment and that is why I responded to you). A sustainable relationship can happen when God is in control. He doesn't impose His control. He is a gentleman and waits for us to invite Him to have control.
I'm glad you shared that you were uncomfortable talking about Jesus in public. I appreciate the honesty of your statement given the company on this blog. I have found Jesus to be uncomfortable at times because His life exposes mine for what it really is. My sin warranted every punch, lash of the whip, thorn in the brow, nail and spear in the body that He endured for my sake. Jesus is uncomfortable because He reveals our inner thoughts and beliefs about God (the Pharisees were busted!!!!). When there is unbelief about Jesus, then there is unbelief about God. He is God, He and the Holy Father are One in the same. And, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus. The communion you have experienced with the Holy Spirit, is communion with Jesus Himself. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, are One and the same.
I do desire to encourage you to read the Bible. It's difficult and completely wonderful all at the same time. Yes, we are convicted of sin but not left there. God labels sin in the Bible because He has something so much better and He's provided a solution/Freedom from it. But He can't free us until we hand Him our chains. We can't hand Him our chains until we know they are there. We can't see our chains until He sheds His light on them. Jesus said, "I am the Light of the World", My prayer for you is that you would spend some time in the Light, and come to understand the Light in a way that will give you intimacy with God, freedom from guilt, joy in difficulty, and of course, the sustainability you need.
Hope you're well!
You are hijacking the thread.
I've heard it said a million times, "The opposite of homosexuality isn't heterosexuality, it's holiness."
So be it, but that's not a solution, it's the same problem. True Love IS holiness. Whether God likes it or not.
You, as a "Church," can love me, in my "celibacy" all you wish, but at the end of the day, I still go home alone and lonely, unnecessarily, and all because of some ARBITRARY Biblical rule?
Some of us aren't strong enough to live our lives alone - to live our lives without even the hope of not living alone - or to live with ONLY the hope of "maybe" "someday"...That's not fair, but so be it even still.
What's worse though, is that to be attracted to women would be to give up my own personhood. And to ask me to do that, is really reeeally not fair, and I haven't heard either one of you address that point yet.
Point being, I don't WANT to be attracted to women, even if the option was guaranteed, I would lose my soul in the process. Technically I AM a woman (with a guy's body). Call it confusion all you like, but then why is the acceptance of that "sinful," and how is it sinful?
How is it BAD? is the question.
My views of God are much more liberal than yours', I've outgrown the Bible, if you will (which is possible, "ask and you shall receive"-wise), but as far as I can tell, you're offering nothing more than a successful life of loneliness, with the possible hope of finding love through (some degree of) heterosexuality.
And I'm not just talking Ray Boltz here, this is what you guys are always saying - (without actually saying so).
None of which means I'm not going to eat you alive the next chance I get, but can you at least see how people like me get frustrated with so much of your language (or lack thereof)?
-Patrick
... even though your overall estimation of our methods, beliefs and goals are completely off base.
I was more lonely in the gay community I was a part of than I have ever been as a Christian living beyond the gay ideology I once embraced. There is many reasons for that, not just the community. But, today, I have a God I can commune with and a Church I love. I have friends, close friends and a community that includes all kinds of people who believe in all kinds of things. I am content and even very happy today whether I ever marry or not.
I do my best to live in the present, not in the "what if's." I live by faith and not by demanding God meet my needs my way.
I have also found intimacy is manifested in many ways that are not romantic or erotic. Plus, many of us seeking a life beyond homosexuality do end up in good healthy marriages that then also produce children and grandchildren. I might be a long term single person but I am surrounded by love and friendship. I am content with my life and when it comes to my life, I don't really need you to be content with my choices or even believe me.
Your putting words in our mouth and arguing from silence instead of looking at a very clear position and testimony and accepting it for what it is. I think you are closed minded to the reality that people like myself exist, life is better because of the path we have chosen and we don't need your approval or understanding to live it. It would be nice and welcomed if you could tolerate what you don't personally accept but your history has shown that you are not inclined toward that disposition.
I pray at some point you will get past your hatred of us whether you ever actually agree with me on this issue or not.
Very very true Mike.
"I am so encouraged by what I have seen take place over the past 8 -10 years. Unfortunately, I think we are reaping the consequences of bad decisions made 30+ years ago."
Here, here. As an out, non-Christian lesbian with a beloved wife of 16 years (wow, how did that happen?) and a gorgeous daughter, I'm not sure we have much in common. But I couldn't agree more with your statement. Whatever disagreements I may have with the ex-gay lifestyle you lead, you're honest and forthright, and you hurt no one. My heart goes out to both Ray and his wife and kids, whom he has profoundly deceived and wounded. But who knows, if he was 25 today, if he wouldn't have made the choices you've made, and saved everyone a lot of misery? You and Mike and College Jay have really given me respect for a new class of ex-gay: not someone who promises unrealistic, immediate (and often false) change, but Christians with stong beliefs who are willing to slug it out, day by day, for what they believe in, without feeling the need to lie to their church, lie to their colleagues, and lie to their wives.
Nick: " And the second is the tragic result of following the hollow promise that "embracing" a gay identity will lead to happiness."
And as a corollary, as much as I admire Randy and Mike and Jay, I feel strongly that ex-gays shouldn't imply that embracing a gay identity is a hollow promise for happiness. *You* may not be happy being gay, but I have a wonderful life, and wouldn't change it a whit. For Ray, embracing a gay identity certainly *may* lead to real, deep happiness, as it does for thousands of gays in this country. But if you are one of the minority for whom being gay makes you miserable, then stop having gay sex and embrace your struggle like the boys I just mentioned. For many, many, many of us, acting straight when we feel gay is the hollow promise of happiness - I won't predict which camp Ray Boltz will fall into, but I wish him all the best finding out.
I appreciate your tolerance and open mind. Thank you very much.
It's obvious you already know where we disagree so no need to go into any of that. Well, except I stopped being a boy 22 years ago :). (40 now :) )
I just wanted to say thanks for being a beacon of civility on a tumultuous topic.
http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2008/09/gay-senior... <-- is a gay blog.
Whether God likes it or not?!?! God IS it. He IS True Love. God is the definition of Love. He is Love in it's perfect form. You are right, True Love Is Holiness. Although, I don't believe you meant your words with the True definition in mind, even if you did capitalize the 'L' of Love.
Look, it's a complicated world we live in, and one reason I read the ex-gay blogs is I'm fascinated by how we both live in the same country, have the same SSA, and yet feel so profoundly different about it. As long as ex-gays are being honest with themselves and the people they date, well, do what you feel your soul telling you to do. Try not to lie about us gay folk (I promise I won't pretend that all Christians are Fred Phelps and all heterosexuals are part of "Girls Gone Wild" if you don't pretend that all gays are Folsom Street Fair), and we keep our personal lives as our consciences dictate, and our political lives vigorous, democratic, and fought in the public sphere, as it should be.
Look, it's a complicated world we live in, and one reason I read the ex-gay blogs is I'm fascinated by how we both live in the same country, have the same SSA, and yet feel so profoundly different about it. As long as ex-gays are being honest with themselves and the people they date, well, do what you feel your soul telling you to do. Try not to lie about us gay folk (I promise I won't pretend that all Christians are Fred Phelps and all heterosexuals are part of "Girls Gone Wild" if you don't pretend that all gays are Folsom Street Fair), and we keep our personal lives as our consciences dictate, and our political lives vigorous, democratic, and fought in the public sphere, as it should be.
http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti...
Maybe you could explain how Alan's statement does not contradict 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, which says that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God. Also, how does Alan's comment make sense IN context? If homosexuality is not holiness, as Exodus says, then how can it be welcome in Heaven, a place where sin is not allowed? If Heaven is a place without sexual labels, then how can we tell the gay people from the straight ones to say with confidence that "gay people live in Heaven"? Wouldn't they simply be "people"?
However, Alan's statement is in complete context with 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (you know...the verse after 10) that states
Alex, this along with the other comments I haven't allowed through only prove that you are parsing and misconstruing comments to pick a fight. The insults and slander don't help much either. You are welcome to read my blog but at this point I am thinking you aren't really here for dialog ... just fighting. That is not what this blog is for so get control of your hostility or go somewhere else.
Are there liars in Heaven? Murderers? Thieves? Rapists?
If you really do want to figure all this out, you'd be much better off reading CS Lewis's The Great Divorce, a very good book about why people choose to go to Hell. And yes, there is a murderer in Lewis's Heaven.
for me, the scripture about "... not casting your pearls before swine" informs me about the importance of investing our words wisely. I don't quote it to actually label others.
I allowed his response to you to come through because I personally was hoping you would do what you normally do and make a compelling comment. You did to a degree but that one part ... not really necessary in my opinion.
Sidenote: And believe it or not, Alex is nothing compared to some folks I have met :::whew:::
Cool?
ETA: and I've met his equivalent, at least, so I'll believe there's worse than him. There's definitely worse online, if you know where to look.
That is obviously what I, Alan Chambers, and CS Lewis mean. The problem is, Alex will never understand/admit that. Hence the sarcasm in my responses, and disinterest in continuing this discussion.
Also, I agree with Alan that the question of sexual orientation is not the determining factor of whether a person goes to heaven or hell. What determines that is whether a person has truly put their faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti...
Also, I agree with Alan that the question of sexual orientation is not the determining factor of whether a person goes to heaven or hell. What determines that is whether a person has truly put their faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
Maybe you could explain how Alan's statement does not contradict 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, which says that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God. Also, how does Alan's comment make sense IN context? If homosexuality is not holiness, as Exodus says, then how can it be welcome in Heaven, a place where sin is not allowed? If Heaven is a place without sexual labels, then how can we tell the gay people from the straight ones to say with confidence that "gay people live in Heaven"? Wouldn't they simply be "people"?
However, Alan's statement is in complete context with 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (you know...the verse after 10) that states
Alex, this along with the other comments I haven't allowed through only prove that you are parsing and misconstruing comments to pick a fight. The insults and slander don't help much either. You are welcome to read my blog but at this point I am thinking you aren't really here for dialog ... just fighting. That is not what this blog is for so get control of your hostility or go somewhere else.
Are there liars in Heaven? Murderers? Thieves? Rapists?
If you really do want to figure all this out, you'd be much better off reading CS Lewis's The Great Divorce, a very good book about why people choose to go to Hell. And yes, there is a murderer in Lewis's Heaven.
for me, the scripture about "... not casting your pearls before swine" informs me about the importance of investing our words wisely. I don't quote it to actually label others.
I allowed his response to you to come through because I personally was hoping you would do what you normally do and make a compelling comment. You did to a degree but that one part ... not really necessary in my opinion.
Sidenote: And believe it or not, Alex is nothing compared to some folks I have met :::whew:::
Cool?
Sorry Cheryl, I have a bit of a dry wit sometimes. I’ll try not to come across so flip next time. : ) And I agree with your definition - I emphasize things the wrong way all the time, I’m constantly working on that, but sorry for that too.
In my post, I was emphasizing ‘true love’ in the romantic way we humans tend to think of it. But God’s True Love? “Agape†it seems to come closest, if not IT itself, but I’m already OT (and I’m a philosopher at heart) so, I better quit here.
-Patrick
Have you read this part this from Mike Ensley’s blog?:
May 08
Emproph: “The problem lies not in believing this, or in attempting to express it---as it is perfectly possible to express in a way that can be understood. The problem lies in dancing around it with calculated sound bites.
I accept that there are some people who will never accept their same-sex attractions as God given, or otherwise. For them, a lifetime of denying their own sexuality is the only option of achieving peace in their lives. So be it, but you need to come to terms with why YOU feel that same-sex attraction is “contrary to Christ,†so that you can explain it as effectively as possible to others when need be.
When you say you are no longer “gay identified,†what you mean is that you no longer identify with thinking that it is ok to like guys.
I think it is ok for me to like guys, therefore you consider me to be “gay identified.â€
I get it.
I even respect it.â€
---
I’m sure you would word that a bit (or quite) differently, and I didn’t link to it, and only included a couple of quotes - as you may not have approved of the rest (or even what I just posted for that matter), but I think it’s important to know that I think I understand a lot more than you think I do.
I believe I understand your beliefs and goals. It’s your methods I don’t get. As in [also from the original post above] "I think you owe it to those you’re trying to reach to be honest about the true definition of “struggler.â€"
Beyond that, we get into debate, which you’ve said you don’t want - so I shant pursue it.
But I do appreciate your listening to my story; “even though [you] may not understand or completely disagree…â€
-Patrick
No worries, I was not offended. If I may, I would like to challenge your understanding of God and Love. I desire you, and so many others, to understand that the Love of God is extraordinarily romantic. The healthiest of human romances is only a shadow of what romance with God is like. I have desperately desired to be married at times. The desperate is gone when I am engaged in romance with God. Continually hopeful but completely fulfilled. Should I never marry I still have more joy than I could have imagined and far more than I ever deserved. I desire for you to discover your own romance with God. It's wild and not something I know how to describe in a few words on a comment box.
No worries, I was not offended.â€
Thank you, thank God.
“If I may, I would like to challenge your understanding of God and Love.â€
Of course, always.
“I desire you, and so many others, to understand that the Love of God is extraordinarily romantic.â€
I accept.
“The healthiest of human romances is only a shadow of what romance with God is like.â€
I accept and agree.
“I have desperately desired to be married at times. The desperate is gone when I am engaged in romance with God.â€
I believe you. And when I listen to Christian music, this is all true. God made the songs to show that God made the radio, and the air to carry the sound waves to our ears - and it all just fits, God is in the air.
“The healthiest of human romances is only a shadow of what romance with God is like. I have desperately desired to be married at times. The desperate is gone when I am engaged in romance with God.â€
I read somewhere, “a peace so deep, not even the shadow of which touches this world.â€
-
“Continually hopeful but completely fulfilled.â€
I feel guilty that I can't feel that way, not even enough, because I KNOW we live in a universe where nothing bad can ever happen.
And I can’t justify my failures, because I know there are so many more who have more fear than me.
“Should I never marry I still have more joy than I could have imagined and far more than I ever deserved.â€
I accept what you say and I believe you.
“I desire for you to discover your own romance with God.â€
Thank you.
“It's wild and not something I know how to describe in a few words on a comment box.â€
I think you did pretty good.
---
Nothing bad can ever happen.
All pain and all fear could ONLY be an illusion designed for the sake of creating more HEAVEN.
Love could have no other goal than to increase itself.
---
So that would be my ‘challenge’ to you, Cheryl, could Love (God/Heaven), have any other goal, other than to increase itself?
I don’t necessarily mean that in a “challenging†way, but more as a ‘have you ever thought about it that way, way? :)
Thank you for your questions, Patrick, they are good ones.
"could Love (God/Heaven), have any other goal, other than to increase itself?"
The Love of God neither increases or decreases. It is complete as it is. Sometimes it feels like it increases or decreases but that is strictly related to my ability to receive His Love. I am inconsistent but my inconsistencies do not change the Love of God. He will never be less or more than He already is.
"But how could we have feared the warning God gave us not to "eat of," or "understand" the knowledge of good and evil, if we had no knowledge of evil?"
I'm not sure I understand this question. At present, we have understanding of good and evil. Adam and Eve did not have understanding of good and evil prior to eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I don't know if they were afraid of the warning and I don't think it's relevant. To believe Adam and Eve had knowledge of good and evil prior to eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil is to call God a liar. I'm not willing to do that.
On a not so different note, I am amazed that you would ask a question about Adam and Eve considering how closely linked their story is with your own personal expression of feeling guilt about not experiencing complete fulfillment and continued hope! Adam and Eve's choice to disobey God has HUGE implications for those of us to follow. They could speak with God face to face, walk beside Him, experience His Love so perfectly. That's why their choice to do what He asked them not to was soooooo horrible. With all the intimate knowledge they had of God Himself, they chose not to believe Him. As a result they were seperated from Him. Because of their seperation from Him, we are also seperated from Him. This is where the term 'sin' comes in. Sin is anything that is an offence against God. In Romans it says, "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."
None of us is exempt from sin. This is where guilt comes in. We feel guilty because we should and we are. I disagree with your statement that nothig bad can ever happen because it has happened. We have chosen ourselves over true Love.
Because of God's perfect Love, He would provide every opportunity for us to return to a right relationship with Him. He came in the person of Jesus Christ. The penalty of sin is death. Not just death to our physical bodies, but death to our spirit or soul. It was Jesus who came and lived a perfect life and suffered a brutal death in order to pay the penalty of sin. If you've seen the Narnia movie 'The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe', Aslan is a Christ figure and Edmond represents the rest of us.
Now we have another choice! Do we believe Jesus? Do we accept His gift of substitution for our debt of sin? Do we surrender ourselves to His perfect Love? If yes, then what does that mean? It means that I am no longer guilty because my debt has been paid! It means that I can have a relationship with God like the one I described to you previously. It means that I can be completely fulfilled. It means that I can experience a portion of Heaven before I die. And it means that I will spend eternity with Him in Heaven.
To not choose Jesus is to continue in the choices that were made in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve. Pain and fear are not an illusion, they are a consequence of sin, of choosing something less than God. Jesus is critical! Jesus said, "I have come that you may have life and have it to the full."
This is a long story for a comment thread. But, I have lived with these Truths and found them to be real and life giving. Jesus makes sense. I do hope you consider what I've said, do your own research, ask God questions, consider a new relationship.
Thanks for the challenge, Patrick.
:::hitting the challenge ball back to Patrick's side of the court:::
That is obviously what I, Alan Chambers, and CS Lewis mean. The problem is, Alex will never understand/admit that. Hence the sarcasm in my responses, and disinterest in continuing this discussion.
In that case, "gay people live in Heaven" and "formerly gay people live in Heaven" mean two completely different things, don'tcha think?
You can do an in page search from your browser menu for your name. That might help.
FRIDAY!
I don't think you need a Disqus account, you just click on the up or down arrow below the poster's icon (with the up arrow being plus a point, and the down arrow being minus). If you do need an account, it probably will ask you to sign in after you press the arrow.
The benefit of rating comments is so that the commenter gets more validation that they provide thoughtful, polite (or at least non-trollish) comments. The way Disqus works is that it is a system that goes across many blogs, not just Randy's. So if you go to another blog using the Disqus system, you can still use your same name and icon, and it will collect all of you comments from across the blogs you visit into that one account. The more you comment, and the more highly rated you are, the more experience points you have. So, theoretically, if you go to a new blog where nobody knows who you are, but you are a four-point Disqus member, they can tell that you have more experience being a nice member of the Blog community than a one-point Disqus member, and they will freely allow your comments through. (If you go up to Jay's comment [just Jay, not Jay Schlosser] you can click on his name, and see every comment that he has made here, and on other blogs. He just happens to be somebody that I know uses this on more than one blog.)
The other reason for rating comments is that it's fun!
But ... I do think you have to claim your account. I haven't tried it otherwise though.
BUT, keep the following post in mind so you won't be caught off guard if some things change soon.
http://randythomas.org/2008/09/24/my-brain-your...
[Cheryl, I’m also going to reply to your original message, to save on space, like I think Piano Man did. We’ll see where it turns up, lol]
--
Cheryl,
E: "could Love (God/Heaven), have any other goal, other than to increase itself?"
C: The Love of God neither increases or decreases. It is complete as it is. Sometimes it feels like it increases or decreases but that is strictly related to my ability to receive His Love. I am inconsistent but my inconsistencies do not change the Love of God. He will never be less or more than He already is.
-
As an avid thinker, that’s the part I don’t get. Infinity by nature -- as a concept -- is a constant state of increasing. So any God that we, or even God itself could conceive of-itself (at least any God that we could conceive of), would always always, be smack dab in the middle of infinity. If God is truly infinite, how could it ever perceive it’s own magnitude? Thus, Its goal, as Love, is to increase Itself, so as to increase It’s own awareness of its own magnitude.
I’m not necessarily saying that that infinite conscience of God doesn’t exist right now, but as a human, that’s one conundrum that I can’t seem to wrap my brain around (yet), but my curiosity will not let it go. : )
--
E: "But how could we have feared the warning God gave us not to "eat of," or "understand" the knowledge of good and evil, if we had no knowledge of evil?"
C: I'm not sure I understand this question. At present, we have understanding of good and evil. Adam and Eve did not have understanding of good and evil prior to eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I don't know if they were afraid of the warning and I don't think it's relevant. To believe Adam and Eve had knowledge of good and evil prior to eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil is to call God a liar. I'm not willing to do that.
-
I’m not suggesting God is a liar, and I do believe there was somehow a discernable “warning,†it’s just another one of those paradoxes I’m trying to figure out. Before the fall, it was Heaven all the time, we had no knowledge of the existence of what “bad†meant -- thus the “warning†not to find out about it. But at the same time, we couldn’t conceive of an experience where anything “bad†could happen. Thus, our lack of fear in learning about the meaning of evil (eating of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil).
God/Love/Heaven, always perceives good and evil in perfect balance. Parts of Its creation -- such as ours -- are capable of perceiving them separately. When I say “nothing bad can ever happen,†what I mean is that if we could see and feel and know how much “good†that that “bad†contributes to the increase in Heaven, then we will see even the bad as part as a necessary part of the GOOD. (FYI, NONE of which is any kind of promotion of causing evil or bad or harm to others!)
I’m not a big Bible reader, but I think there’s a part that says “count it all in joy,†“all things work for the glory of God,†and the ever popular, “God has a reason for everything.†Those are reflections of what I mean.
I think we are at the bottom of creational “fallen†“barrel†so to speak. I think this world was designed specifically for us to master the sensations of good and evil separately, but on a conscious level this time. So that unlike before the fall, when we were just recipients of God’s Love, this time, upon mastery, we’ll be able to generate -- and be worthy of -- directing God’s Love - fearlessly and with the full knowledge of the reality of good and evil.
--
C: On a not so different note, I am amazed that..
E: I pretty much agree with that paragraph. That’s another one of those conundrums I’m often working on -- what “life†was like before the fall. (I believe we are all eternal aspects of the consciousness of God. No beginning, no end), it’s our identities that are being defined and awakened. Like the cells of our bodies, each one unique and different, with a unique role to play in the total-consciousness (or “god†part) of our being, if you will. You could even look at the people of the Earth in the same way. Some of us are thinkers, some of us “digest†the information the world has to provide so the rest of us can understand it and absorb it, some of us are heart cells that make sure the rest of the body gets that usable information, some of us are T-cells, who make sure certain bad things NEVER happen again, and some of us are fat cells, just sitting around, without passion, absorbing everything going on around them, just incase of emergency.
You get the point, but my point is that this is our “identities,†as designed and as aspects of God that are being honed, via the challenges of this world (good and evil), to reach their fullest potential.
--
C: Pain and fear are not an illusion, they are a consequence of sin, of choosing something less than God. Jesus is critical!
E: Again, I’m not promoting or endorsing harm of and kind, and I agree that fear and pain are the consequence of sin - and are bad things to avoid and stop! But if God truly is only Love, then all creation could only come from that “substance.†(even evil is the ‘love’ of the absence of love). Point being, how would you know that fear and pain are not illusions if they are truly illusions? Point being, again, If we can see them as illusions, or ‘tests,’ per se, then we can overcome all temptation to do ever more of Gods/Love’s Will, because we will have overcome the fear of fear and pain. And that’s, of course, the example of Jesus - and where the Holy Spirit come in. I don’t really feel comfortable talking about Jesus in public, but if the story is true (though I may interpret it much different than you), then He is apart of the Holy Spirit, which I do perceive and feel I am able to commune with at times.
--
C: …consider a new relationship.
E: To be clear, it’s not a “new†relationship I need, it’s the sustainability that’s the problem, but I’ll try.
::Thanks for the reminder::
I don't think you need a Disqus account, you just click on the up or down arrow below the poster's icon (with the up arrow being plus a point, and the down arrow being minus). If you do need an account, it probably will ask you to sign in after you press the arrow.
The benefit of rating comments is so that the commenter gets more validation that they provide thoughtful, polite (or at least non-trollish) comments. The way Disqus works is that it is a system that goes across many blogs, not just Randy's. So if you go to another blog using the Disqus system, you can still use your same name and icon, and it will collect all of you comments from across the blogs you visit into that one account. The more you comment, and the more highly rated you are, the more experience points you have. So, theoretically, if you go to a new blog where nobody knows who you are, but you are a four-point Disqus member, they can tell that you have more experience being a nice member of the Blog community than a one-point Disqus member, and they will freely allow your comments through. (If you go up to Jay's comment [just Jay, not Jay Schlosser] you can click on his name, and see every comment that he has made here, and on other blogs. He just happens to be somebody that I know uses this on more than one blog.)
The other reason for rating comments is that it's fun!
However, dang ... that is a LONG comment. :) There is always the possibility of you turning that into a post on your own blog and posting a link to that posts page here.
Of course there is a lot on your blog that I don't appreciate but if a civil dialog is occurring I am more apt to allow the link to stand.
You can do an in page search from your browser menu for your name. That might help.
FRIDAY!
But ... I do think you have to claim your account. I haven't tried it otherwise though.
BUT, keep the following post in mind so you won't be caught off guard if some things change soon.
http://randythomas.org/2008/09/24/my-brain-your...
Anyway, I think maybe the whole "God is infinite" thing is something that can't be fully understood based on mathematical principles/theory, or at least math as it is known within the universe, because it doesn't seem like anyone has a coherent, widely accepted answer on what that means. (Although an alternative explanation could be that we just don't fully understand what infinite means, yet).
The other problem I think you might be running into, is that you seem to have a pastiche of ideas of what God is like, some of them True, and some of them false, drawn from various sources. The thing that I would immediately zero in on is the fact that you seem to think that Good and Evil have to be (or at least are) in perfect balance, and that Evil can contribute to the goodness of God. I know that most (if not all) of the Christian philosophers I have read pretty much reject that idea, but I don't have the ability to recreate anyone's argument here. You might look into it, though.
Oh goodie, we’re frienemies. ;)
“... it seems different for whatever reason.â€
Less hateful and vindictive?
But you‘re right, I usually am hateful and vindictive.
“However, dang ... that is a LONG comment. :) There is always the possibility of you turning that into a post on your own blog and posting a link to that posts page here.
Of course there is a lot on your blog that I don't appreciate…â€
I know, that’s what I thought too, but even though I have a lot of “innocent†pages, it’s too easy to click on something that would most likely be seen as offensive. Maybe I can set up another site, just for situations like this.
“but if a civil dialog is occurring I am more apt to allow the link to stand.â€
I have one more long post to Piano Man Kugie. It’s perfectly civil (in effort anyway), but some of the content may be a bit “out there,†as far as beliefs and understandings go. I’m trying to be as open and honest as possible for the sake of the quality of the conversation. So that’s one reason for the length, I’m trying to over explain things in order to ensure that anything potentially offensive-sounding is not misconstrued as such. But, if you feel the need to delete my next post, I’ll accept it. I’ll be disappointed as well, but I would just ask that you at least appreciate that I put a lot of effort into ensuring that my posts here are not offensive, as I am a guest here, but more importantly, that you appreciate that I don’t just throw this stuff around. This is me.
And I'd agree with you Randy, and can also testify to not fretting and I'm certainly not a waste either. And neither do I go about trying to pursuade myself and/or others in who I am.
“1. …But I ask you to further consider the thought that some suffering might actually bring forth more good than bad.â€
Agreed. But as I’m sure you can understand, it’s the nature of suffering itself that blinds one to the higher good. That, of course, is the challenge - to maintain that sight throughout..
“2. Holiness isn't what I would naturally think of as a solution for being sexually alone, nor would anyone else naturally think that. So if it is a solution, it's a different solution. My craving for sweets can be solved by eating sweets, but it may also be solved through not eating sweets. Just a thought.â€
“My craving for sweets can be solved by eating sweets, but it may also be solved through not eating sweets. Just a thought.â€
But what we’re talking about is (your sentence, reworded):
My human craving for love and companionship can be solved by experiencing love and companionship, but it may also be solved through not experiencing love and companionship. Yes, it’s a thought, I would say it’s even the goal, but it speaks to a very small audience, of which, at this point, unfortunately, I am not apart of.
“3. The LORD is willing to be with you in spiritual union, and you may find Him to be adequate compensation for the lack of physical union, as odd as it seems. His kingdom really is far out of this world. As for Rules, they literally kill; but the Spirit gives life.â€
Sometimes God IS with me in spiritual union, but when He is, I recognize His Kingdom as being all around me, and understand that we never ‘left’ Heaven, or “The Garden,†so to speak.
As for the Rules kill and Spirit gives life, the way I take that is as what is called karma and dharma. Karma being the law of cause and effect - there are actions and equal consequences, and Dharma as being the mastering of those rules to the point where all that pours out of you is God’s Spirit and a knowingness of, and desire for His Will.
“4. When he encourages me to glorify God with my body, he's encouraging me to reflect the image of God. Since the image of God is both male and female, I perceive that male and male is only half of God's image, or put another way, instead of Christ the Groom and the Church the Bride, it would be Christ the Groom and Christ the Groom, God making love to himself instead of to us. Yes I agree this whole concept is bizarre, I just ask you to consider it all.â€
Not bizarre at all, I understand the concept, and I basically agree. Hold on…
“5. God may have attractions for women in your future, but then you'd have to live with dealing with those. Sounds to me like you have enough to deal with already. I confess I don't understand and can't understand what it's like to be a woman in a man's body; I only know what it's like to feel the very intense desire for a man.â€
So if you were transplanted into a woman's body (somehow), would you then not be a heterosexual woman?
I remember having lived before.
After a traumatic event, and much vociferous prayer to God as the result, I received two spontaneous past life revelations, which explained why it affected me so, and much MUCH more.
I realize that I’ve just trashed any credibility that I may have had with some of you, but my point is that at least for me, there is a genuine knowing that it is no more sinful to accept one’s same-sex attraction, than it is to choose to be born in the “wrong†body.
There’s a lot more to that story, and I do understand that many will consider what I’ve just said to be an hallucination or of Satanic influence, and perhaps it is, but it explains too much and has improved my life too much to dismiss it as such.
---
You say: “To your question How is it sinful? No more than the greedy, or the slanderer, or the self-righteous, etc.â€
But those are all things that directly cause harm. My question was, (paraphrased), how does the romantic intimacy (love) shared between two adults of the same gender cause harm? There’s no malice, or even harm-causing negligence.
The best answer I’ve heard so far, is that it would be “taught†in schools as being a part of reality. If a parent thinks that human sexual attraction is that fluid, then I guess I can see that as a legitimate fear, but that needs to be explained MUCH better - with personal testimonies - by these fearful parents, about how they didn’t know whether or not they were attracted to boys or girls until a very late age.
I remember being attracted to men when I was 4 years old, and nothing ever changed, so it’s extremely difficult, if not impossible to relate to this, what appears to be a theory of universal sexual fluidity.
If same-gender intimacy -- and I’m not just talking sexual (if at all) -- causes those two people to be more loving and productive individuals in their own lives, and by extension, more productive members of society, who then, is the victim?
You are hijacking the thread.
As for your blog, I don't swim around in pools full of broken glass.
I did delete your long post to Piano man knowing full well you have other avenues to communicate this to him. This is a comment section, not a rough draft for a book. Break it down or post lengthy responses on your blog. I don't want a pattern developing where the thread is completely lost to "Jamming" it with debates framed from your point of view.
And while I respect you have put a lot into them and are being honest, I think they are best served in a post on your blog and not in the middle of almost a 100 comments.
Orlando is very beautiful, Randy.
I continue to maintain the truth that God's Love is complete and perfect as it is and does not increase or decrease. Thank you for admitting that you are having a difficult time understanding it. I do too. A God I can fully understand is just too small. Do we try to understand more? Absolutely. Eternity will not be enough time for us to exhaust learning about Him. He's just that big. In Psalm 8 the psalmist refers to the heavens and the earth as the work of God's fingers. I don't know if you've considered the size of the universe lately, but God created it with His fingers. God can be complete Love never increasing or decreasing and be infinite at the same time because He's just that big.
Your next comment about bad and good is interesting to me. You are right, the Bible says, "Consider it pure joy when you face trials of many kinds because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance." James 1:2 and "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." Romans 8:28. I couldn't figure out which other scripture you were referring to with your 3rd example. But there is tonnes of scripture that encourage and give strength to believers who are enduring difficulty. The fact that bad can come of good is only through the grace of God. Read Romans 3. In fact, read all of Romans...you've quoted some of it:) I think Paul can answer you much better than I can.
What I do see in what you've written is an idea that righteousness ("being in accordance with what is just, honorable and free from guilt" is my Webster's dictionary definition of righteousness) can be earned; that we can overcome evil by working hard at being good. Paul also addresses this thought in Romans. The Bible is VERY clear on this point that evil is overcome only through the blood of Jesus. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Light, no one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6 "For it is by Grace you have been saved, through faith, and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph. 2:8 & 9. It is the GIFT of God. When we work to earn our righteousness then it is no longer a gift. It is wages.
Your comment, "If we can see them as illusions, or ‘tests,’ per se, then we can overcome all temptation to do ever more of Gods/Love’s Will, because we will have overcome the fear of fear and pain. And that’s, of course, the example of Jesus - and where the Holy Spirit comes in. I don’t really feel comfortable talking about Jesus in public, but if the story is true (though I may interpret it much different than you), then He is apart of the Holy Spirit, which I do perceive and feel I am able to commune with at times." made me smile. I believe you when you say that you feel you are able to perceive and commune with the Holy Spirit at times. I can see His finger prints in your questions and I believe He is calling you to know His Love and enter into a 'sustainable' relationship with Him (I saw Him in your first comment and that is why I responded to you). A sustainable relationship can happen when God is in control. He doesn't impose His control. He is a gentleman and waits for us to invite Him to have control.
I'm glad you shared that you were uncomfortable talking about Jesus in public. I appreciate the honesty of your statement given the company on this blog. I have found Jesus to be uncomfortable at times because His life exposes mine for what it really is. My sin warranted every punch, lash of the whip, thorn in the brow, nail and spear in the body that He endured for my sake. Jesus is uncomfortable because He reveals our inner thoughts and beliefs about God (the Pharisees were busted!!!!). When there is unbelief about Jesus, then there is unbelief about God. He is God, He and the Holy Father are One in the same. And, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus. The communion you have experienced with the Holy Spirit, is communion with Jesus Himself. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, are One and the same.
I do desire to encourage you to read the Bible. It's difficult and completely wonderful all at the same time. Yes, we are convicted of sin but not left there. God labels sin in the Bible because He has something so much better and He's provided a solution/Freedom from it. But He can't free us until we hand Him our chains. We can't hand Him our chains until we know they are there. We can't see our chains until He sheds His light on them. Jesus said, "I am the Light of the World", My prayer for you is that you would spend some time in the Light, and come to understand the Light in a way that will give you intimacy with God, freedom from guilt, joy in difficulty, and of course, the sustainability you need.
Hope you're well!
(1) spending the rest of your life trying to persuade yourself and everyone else that you’re straight, or
(2) acknowledging that you’re “same-sex attracted”, but spending the rest of your life fretting over it and telling yourself that it would be better if you weren’t.
Either way, it’s a waste of a life.
1) Thinking, relating and living beyond labels like "straight" and "gay" and seeking the mystery of what it means to be alive in Christ.
2) Being at peace with the fact that our feelings are sometimes in conflict with who God wants us to be, and knowing there's grace to struggle and room to grow.
And by the way change does happen...
2) I can assure you I am neither fretting or a waste.
But thanks for the comment.
And I'd agree with you Randy, and can also testify to not fretting and I'm certainly not a waste either. And neither do I go about trying to pursuade myself and/or others in who I am.