ETC: Everyday Thoughts Collected - Latest Comments in On Chris Fabry Live Concerning Ray Boltz “Coming Out”

Re: On Chris Fabry Live Concerning Ray Boltz “Coming Out”

ETC TOP TEN! : Say No To Porn, — Wed, 31 Dec 2008 01:26:25 -0000

[...] On Chris Fabry Live Concerning Ray Boltz - This was the overwhelming leader. It had three times the traffic than its closest ranked post. [...]

Re: On Chris Fabry Live Concerning Ray Boltz “Coming Out”

Cheryl — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 22:59:09 -0000

Sorry, Patrick. Romans 6 was what I was meaning when I said Romans 3.

Hope you're well!

Re: On Chris Fabry Live Concerning Ray Boltz “Coming Out”

cherylemery — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 13:59:09 -0000

Sorry, Patrick. Romans 6 was what I was meaning when I said Romans 3.

Hope you're well!

Re: On Chris Fabry Live Concerning Ray Boltz “Coming Out”

Cheryl — Sat, 04 Oct 2008 00:13:55 -0000

Patrick!

I continue to maintain the truth that God's Love is complete and perfect as it is and does not increase or decrease. Thank you for admitting that you are having a difficult time understanding it. I do too. A God I can fully understand is just too small. Do we try to understand more? Absolutely. Eternity will not be enough time for us to exhaust learning about Him. He's just that big. In Psalm 8 the psalmist refers to the heavens and the earth as the work of God's fingers. I don't know if you've considered the size of the universe lately, but God created it with His fingers. God can be complete Love never increasing or decreasing and be infinite at the same time because He's just that big.

Your next comment about bad and good is interesting to me. You are right, the Bible says, "Consider it pure joy when you face trials of many kinds because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance." James 1:2 and "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." Romans 8:28. I couldn't figure out which other scripture you were referring to with your 3rd example. But there is tonnes of scripture that encourage and give strength to believers who are enduring difficulty. The fact that bad can come of good is only through the grace of God. Read Romans 3. In fact, read all of Romans...you've quoted some of it:) I think Paul can answer you much better than I can.

What I do see in what you've written is an idea that righteousness ("being in accordance with what is just, honorable and free from guilt" is my Webster's dictionary definition of righteousness) can be earned; that we can overcome evil by working hard at being good. Paul also addresses this thought in Romans. The Bible is VERY clear on this point that evil is overcome only through the blood of Jesus. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Light, no one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6 "For it is by Grace you have been saved, through faith, and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph. 2:8 & 9. It is the GIFT of God. When we work to earn our righteousness then it is no longer a gift. It is wages.

Your comment, "If we can see them as illusions, or â€˜tests,â€™ per se, then we can overcome all temptation to do ever more of Gods/Loveâ€™s Will, because we will have overcome the fear of fear and pain. And thatâ€™s, of course, the example of Jesus - and where the Holy Spirit comes in. I donâ€™t really feel comfortable talking about Jesus in public, but if the story is true (though I may interpret it much different than you), then He is apart of the Holy Spirit, which I do perceive and feel I am able to commune with at times." made me smile. I believe you when you say that you feel you are able to perceive and commune with the Holy Spirit at times. I can see His finger prints in your questions and I believe He is calling you to know His Love and enter into a 'sustainable' relationship with Him (I saw Him in your first comment and that is why I responded to you). A sustainable relationship can happen when God is in control. He doesn't impose His control. He is a gentleman and waits for us to invite Him to have control.

I'm glad you shared that you were uncomfortable talking about Jesus in public. I appreciate the honesty of your statement given the company on this blog. I have found Jesus to be uncomfortable at times because His life exposes mine for what it really is. My sin warranted every punch, lash of the whip, thorn in the brow, nail and spear in the body that He endured for my sake. Jesus is uncomfortable because He reveals our inner thoughts and beliefs about God (the Pharisees were busted!!!!). When there is unbelief about Jesus, then there is unbelief about God. He is God, He and the Holy Father are One in the same. And, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus. The communion you have experienced with the Holy Spirit, is communion with Jesus Himself. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, are One and the same.

I do desire to encourage you to read the Bible. It's difficult and completely wonderful all at the same time. Yes, we are convicted of sin but not left there. God labels sin in the Bible because He has something so much better and He's provided a solution/Freedom from it. But He can't free us until we hand Him our chains. We can't hand Him our chains until we know they are there. We can't see our chains until He sheds His light on them. Jesus said, "I am the Light of the World", My prayer for you is that you would spend some time in the Light, and come to understand the Light in a way that will give you intimacy with God, freedom from guilt, joy in difficulty, and of course, the sustainability you need.

Re: On Chris Fabry Live Concerning Ray Boltz “Coming Out”

cherylemery — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 15:13:55 -0000

Patrick!

I continue to maintain the truth that God's Love is complete and perfect as it is and does not increase or decrease. Thank you for admitting that you are having a difficult time understanding it. I do too. A God I can fully understand is just too small. Do we try to understand more? Absolutely. Eternity will not be enough time for us to exhaust learning about Him. He's just that big. In Psalm 8 the psalmist refers to the heavens and the earth as the work of God's fingers. I don't know if you've considered the size of the universe lately, but God created it with His fingers. God can be complete Love never increasing or decreasing and be infinite at the same time because He's just that big.

Your next comment about bad and good is interesting to me. You are right, the Bible says, "Consider it pure joy when you face trials of many kinds because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance." James 1:2 and "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." Romans 8:28. I couldn't figure out which other scripture you were referring to with your 3rd example. But there is tonnes of scripture that encourage and give strength to believers who are enduring difficulty. The fact that bad can come of good is only through the grace of God. Read Romans 3. In fact, read all of Romans...you've quoted some of it:) I think Paul can answer you much better than I can.

What I do see in what you've written is an idea that righteousness ("being in accordance with what is just, honorable and free from guilt" is my Webster's dictionary definition of righteousness) can be earned; that we can overcome evil by working hard at being good. Paul also addresses this thought in Romans. The Bible is VERY clear on this point that evil is overcome only through the blood of Jesus. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Light, no one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6 "For it is by Grace you have been saved, through faith, and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph. 2:8 & 9. It is the GIFT of God. When we work to earn our righteousness then it is no longer a gift. It is wages.

Your comment, "If we can see them as illusions, or ‘tests,’ per se, then we can overcome all temptation to do ever more of Gods/Love’s Will, because we will have overcome the fear of fear and pain. And that’s, of course, the example of Jesus - and where the Holy Spirit comes in. I don’t really feel comfortable talking about Jesus in public, but if the story is true (though I may interpret it much different than you), then He is apart of the Holy Spirit, which I do perceive and feel I am able to commune with at times." made me smile. I believe you when you say that you feel you are able to perceive and commune with the Holy Spirit at times. I can see His finger prints in your questions and I believe He is calling you to know His Love and enter into a 'sustainable' relationship with Him (I saw Him in your first comment and that is why I responded to you). A sustainable relationship can happen when God is in control. He doesn't impose His control. He is a gentleman and waits for us to invite Him to have control.

I'm glad you shared that you were uncomfortable talking about Jesus in public. I appreciate the honesty of your statement given the company on this blog. I have found Jesus to be uncomfortable at times because His life exposes mine for what it really is. My sin warranted every punch, lash of the whip, thorn in the brow, nail and spear in the body that He endured for my sake. Jesus is uncomfortable because He reveals our inner thoughts and beliefs about God (the Pharisees were busted!!!!). When there is unbelief about Jesus, then there is unbelief about God. He is God, He and the Holy Father are One in the same. And, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus. The communion you have experienced with the Holy Spirit, is communion with Jesus Himself. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, are One and the same.

I do desire to encourage you to read the Bible. It's difficult and completely wonderful all at the same time. Yes, we are convicted of sin but not left there. God labels sin in the Bible because He has something so much better and He's provided a solution/Freedom from it. But He can't free us until we hand Him our chains. We can't hand Him our chains until we know they are there. We can't see our chains until He sheds His light on them. Jesus said, "I am the Light of the World", My prayer for you is that you would spend some time in the Light, and come to understand the Light in a way that will give you intimacy with God, freedom from guilt, joy in difficulty, and of course, the sustainability you need.

Re: On Chris Fabry Live Concerning Ray Boltz “Coming Out”

Cheryl — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 09:17:23 -0000

Thanks for your comment, Patrick. I've been out of town and had a difficult trip home. All that to say, I want to think about what you've said and I know I can't do that with my brain still floating somewhere between Orlando and Calgary! Who knew I would run into tropical storm issues flying in Toronto rather than Orlando?!?!

Orlando is very beautiful, Randy.

Re: On Chris Fabry Live Concerning Ray Boltz “Coming Out”

cherylemery — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 00:17:23 -0000

Re: On Chris Fabry Live Concerning Ray Boltz “Coming Out”

Randy — Sun, 28 Sep 2008 06:33:20 -0000

Piano Man, please don't be inhibited. Long is ok from time to time but not every comment needs to be a full on article :).

Re: On Chris Fabry Live Concerning Ray Boltz “Coming Out”

Piano Man Kugie — Sun, 28 Sep 2008 06:28:30 -0000

Piano Man here. I just reread my response to Patrick above, and OK, it is LONG. OK, I'll keep everything short. If I can't say it short, I won't say it. Thank you for having this blog. I don't have a blog, and I'm not about to place my email address here. Thanks again Randy for the blog. :)

Re: On Chris Fabry Live Concerning Ray Boltz “Coming Out”

RThomasETC — Sat, 27 Sep 2008 21:33:20 -0000

Piano Man, please don't be inhibited. Long is ok from time to time but not every comment needs to be a full on article :).

Re: On Chris Fabry Live Concerning Ray Boltz “Coming Out”

Pianomankugie — Sat, 27 Sep 2008 21:28:30 -0000

Re: On Chris Fabry Live Concerning Ray Boltz “Coming Out”

Randy — Sat, 27 Sep 2008 03:01:54 -0000

I also didn't think your post was offensive. I only deleted it because it was way to long and taking over the thread.

And while I respect you have put a lot into them and are being honest, I think they are best served in a post on your blog and not in the middle of almost a 100 comments.

Re: On Chris Fabry Live Concerning Ray Boltz “Coming Out”

Randy — Sat, 27 Sep 2008 02:51:09 -0000

OK, there isn't any "goodie" to it in my opinion. The Lord commanded me to love and be prayerful toward my "enemies" not frienemy. I hopefully will turn the other cheek but I will never turn a blind eye as long as you maintain your usual approach to us and our beliefs.

As for your blog, I don't swim around in pools full of broken glass.

I did delete your long post to Piano man knowing full well you have other avenues to communicate this to him. This is a comment section, not a rough draft for a book. Break it down or post lengthy responses on your blog. I don't want a pattern developing where the thread is completely lost to "Jamming" it with debates framed from your point of view.

Re: On Chris Fabry Live Concerning Ray Boltz “Coming Out”

Randy — Sat, 27 Sep 2008 02:35:24 -0000

OK,... Emproph, you need to start writing out your very very ... very long answers on your own blog and pointing people from here to there with a link. Maybe do a summary here of... So and so, I responded to our dialog on 1)2)3)...17) on my blog at .....

You are hijacking the thread.

Re: On Chris Fabry Live Concerning Ray Boltz “Coming Out”

Emproph — Sat, 27 Sep 2008 01:32:18 -0000

Thanks for your very thoughtful and thorough response Piano Man Kugie. I addressed as much of it as I could:

â€œ1. â€¦But I ask you to further consider the thought that some suffering might actually bring forth more good than bad.â€

Agreed. But as Iâ€™m sure you can understand, itâ€™s the nature of suffering itself that blinds one to the higher good. That, of course, is the challenge - to maintain that sight throughout..

â€œ2. Holiness isn't what I would naturally think of as a solution for being sexually alone, nor would anyone else naturally think that. So if it is a solution, it's a different solution. My craving for sweets can be solved by eating sweets, but it may also be solved through not eating sweets. Just a thought.â€

â€œMy craving for sweets can be solved by eating sweets, but it may also be solved through not eating sweets. Just a thought.â€

But what weâ€™re talking about is (your sentence, reworded):

My human craving for love and companionship can be solved by experiencing love and companionship, but it may also be solved through not experiencing love and companionship. Yes, itâ€™s a thought, I would say itâ€™s even the goal, but it speaks to a very small audience, of which, at this point, unfortunately, I am not apart of.

â€œ3. The LORD is willing to be with you in spiritual union, and you may find Him to be adequate compensation for the lack of physical union, as odd as it seems. His kingdom really is far out of this world. As for Rules, they literally kill; but the Spirit gives life.â€

Sometimes God IS with me in spiritual union, but when He is, I recognize His Kingdom as being all around me, and understand that we never â€˜leftâ€™ Heaven, or â€œThe Garden,â€ so to speak.

As for the Rules kill and Spirit gives life, the way I take that is as what is called karma and dharma. Karma being the law of cause and effect - there are actions and equal consequences, and Dharma as being the mastering of those rules to the point where all that pours out of you is Godâ€™s Spirit and a knowingness of, and desire for His Will.

â€œ4. When he encourages me to glorify God with my body, he's encouraging me to reflect the image of God. Since the image of God is both male and female, I perceive that male and male is only half of God's image, or put another way, instead of Christ the Groom and the Church the Bride, it would be Christ the Groom and Christ the Groom, God making love to himself instead of to us. Yes I agree this whole concept is bizarre, I just ask you to consider it all.â€

Not bizarre at all, I understand the concept, and I basically agree. Hold onâ€¦

â€œ5. God may have attractions for women in your future, but then you'd have to live with dealing with those. Sounds to me like you have enough to deal with already. I confess I don't understand and can't understand what it's like to be a woman in a man's body; I only know what it's like to feel the very intense desire for a man.â€

So if you were transplanted into a woman's body (somehow), would you then not be a heterosexual woman?

I remember having lived before.

After a traumatic event, and much vociferous prayer to God as the result, I received two spontaneous past life revelations, which explained why it affected me so, and much MUCH more.

I realize that Iâ€™ve just trashed any credibility that I may have had with some of you, but my point is that at least for me, there is a genuine knowing that it is no more sinful to accept oneâ€™s same-sex attraction, than it is to choose to be born in the â€œwrongâ€ body.

Thereâ€™s a lot more to that story, and I do understand that many will consider what Iâ€™ve just said to be an hallucination or of Satanic influence, and perhaps it is, but it explains too much and has improved my life too much to dismiss it as such.

---

You say: â€œTo your question How is it sinful? No more than the greedy, or the slanderer, or the self-righteous, etc.â€

But those are all things that directly cause harm. My question was, (paraphrased), how does the romantic intimacy (love) shared between two adults of the same gender cause harm? Thereâ€™s no malice, or even harm-causing negligence.

The best answer Iâ€™ve heard so far, is that it would be â€œtaughtâ€ in schools as being a part of reality. If a parent thinks that human sexual attraction is that fluid, then I guess I can see that as a legitimate fear, but that needs to be explained MUCH better - with personal testimonies - by these fearful parents, about how they didnâ€™t know whether or not they were attracted to boys or girls until a very late age.

I remember being attracted to men when I was 4 years old, and nothing ever changed, so itâ€™s extremely difficult, if not impossible to relate to this, what appears to be a theory of universal sexual fluidity.

If same-gender intimacy -- and Iâ€™m not just talking sexual (if at all) -- causes those two people to be more loving and productive individuals in their own lives, and by extension, more productive members of society, who then, is the victim?

Re: On Chris Fabry Live Concerning Ray Boltz “Coming Out”

Janey — Sat, 27 Sep 2008 00:46:32 -0000

That's a good response. My question always is ... why must people label themselves? I sometimes get frustrated with people who want to label me either "gay" or "straight" .... Why can't I just be a woman created in God's Image who just happens to be on a journey of discovering what had always intended for me. By the way, that pretty much is the journey that Christians are in regardless if they have issues surrounding same-sex attraction and Gender Identity issues or not.

And I'd agree with you Randy, and can also testify to not fretting and I'm certainly not a waste either. And neither do I go about trying to pursuade myself and/or others in who I am.

Re: On Chris Fabry Live Concerning Ray Boltz “Coming Out”

Emproph — Sat, 27 Sep 2008 00:36:48 -0000

â€œWell, usually you are beyond what is appropriate but this go around ... it seems different for whatever reason.â€

Oh goodie, weâ€™re frienemies. ;)

â€œ... it seems different for whatever reason.â€

Less hateful and vindictive?

But youâ€˜re right, I usually am hateful and vindictive.

â€œHowever, dang ... that is a LONG comment. :) There is always the possibility of you turning that into a post on your own blog and posting a link to that posts page here.

Of course there is a lot on your blog that I don't appreciateâ€¦â€

I know, thatâ€™s what I thought too, but even though I have a lot of â€œinnocentâ€ pages, itâ€™s too easy to click on something that would most likely be seen as offensive. Maybe I can set up another site, just for situations like this.

â€œbut if a civil dialog is occurring I am more apt to allow the link to stand.â€

I have one more long post to Piano Man Kugie. Itâ€™s perfectly civil (in effort anyway), but some of the content may be a bit â€œout there,â€ as far as beliefs and understandings go. Iâ€™m trying to be as open and honest as possible for the sake of the quality of the conversation. So thatâ€™s one reason for the length, Iâ€™m trying to over explain things in order to ensure that anything potentially offensive-sounding is not misconstrued as such. But, if you feel the need to delete my next post, Iâ€™ll accept it. Iâ€™ll be disappointed as well, but I would just ask that you at least appreciate that I put a lot of effort into ensuring that my posts here are not offensive, as I am a guest here, but more importantly, that you appreciate that I donâ€™t just throw this stuff around. This is me.

Re: On Chris Fabry Live Concerning Ray Boltz “Coming Out”

Ellie — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 21:51:07 -0000

It seems like everytime I read from or speak to a physicist (or other smart person who understands complicated mathy things) about what it means for God to be infinite, I get a different answer. Sometimes even totally contradictory answers. And scientific types say they're objective. Hmph! (ok, I work at Caltech, so I do like science and scientists...a little).

Anyway, I think maybe the whole "God is infinite" thing is something that can't be fully understood based on mathematical principles/theory, or at least math as it is known within the universe, because it doesn't seem like anyone has a coherent, widely accepted answer on what that means. (Although an alternative explanation could be that we just don't fully understand what infinite means, yet).

The other problem I think you might be running into, is that you seem to have a pastiche of ideas of what God is like, some of them True, and some of them false, drawn from various sources. The thing that I would immediately zero in on is the fact that you seem to think that Good and Evil have to be (or at least are) in perfect balance, and that Evil can contribute to the goodness of God. I know that most (if not all) of the Christian philosophers I have read pretty much reject that idea, but I don't have the ability to recreate anyone's argument here. You might look into it, though.

Re: On Chris Fabry Live Concerning Ray Boltz “Coming Out”

Randy — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 20:53:01 -0000

Hey Susan, I would suggest going ahead and clicking through (by clicking on your picture or name beside a published comment) and claiming your profile (basically registering.) It's easy and free. It also unlocks a couple (not much) extra features. You can also upload a picture :).

BUT, keep the following post in mind so you won't be caught off guard if some things change soon.

http://randythomas.org/2008/09/24/my-brain-your...

Re: On Chris Fabry Live Concerning Ray Boltz “Coming Out”

Randy — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 20:49:02 -0000

I just rated your comment up :).

But ... I do think you have to claim your account. I haven't tried it otherwise though.

Re: On Chris Fabry Live Concerning Ray Boltz “Coming Out”

Randy — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 20:47:26 -0000

WOOT!!! Friday!!!

You can do an in page search from your browser menu for your name. That might help.

FRIDAY!

Re: On Chris Fabry Live Concerning Ray Boltz “Coming Out”

Randy — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 20:37:20 -0000

Well, usually you are beyond what is appropriate but this go around ... it seems different for whatever reason.

However, dang ... that is a LONG comment. :) There is always the possibility of you turning that into a post on your own blog and posting a link to that posts page here.

Of course there is a lot on your blog that I don't appreciate but if a civil dialog is occurring I am more apt to allow the link to stand.

Re: On Chris Fabry Live Concerning Ray Boltz “Coming Out”

Ellie — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 20:10:44 -0000

Hi Susan,

I don't think you need a Disqus account, you just click on the up or down arrow below the poster's icon (with the up arrow being plus a point, and the down arrow being minus). If you do need an account, it probably will ask you to sign in after you press the arrow.

The benefit of rating comments is so that the commenter gets more validation that they provide thoughtful, polite (or at least non-trollish) comments. The way Disqus works is that it is a system that goes across many blogs, not just Randy's. So if you go to another blog using the Disqus system, you can still use your same name and icon, and it will collect all of you comments from across the blogs you visit into that one account. The more you comment, and the more highly rated you are, the more experience points you have. So, theoretically, if you go to a new blog where nobody knows who you are, but you are a four-point Disqus member, they can tell that you have more experience being a nice member of the Blog community than a one-point Disqus member, and they will freely allow your comments through. (If you go up to Jay's comment [just Jay, not Jay Schlosser] you can click on his name, and see every comment that he has made here, and on other blogs. He just happens to be somebody that I know uses this on more than one blog.)

The other reason for rating comments is that it's fun!

Re: On Chris Fabry Live Concerning Ray Boltz “Coming Out”

SusanH — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 18:31:46 -0000

Do I need a DISQUS account to rate comments?

Re: On Chris Fabry Live Concerning Ray Boltz “Coming Out”

Mensley — Fri, 26 Sep 2008 18:03:14 -0000

Somebody in here somewhere asked me a question--but that was like 30 comments ago and now I can't remember anything. It's Friday!