the homosexual struggle and the civil rights movement have nothing in common. Any group can try to hijack the civil rights movement by drawing parallels. Notice I did acknowledge that homosexually inclined people do struggle... but the longer that those who identify as gay keep pushing civil rights language which completely infers equal suffering the more they alienate those who survived/survive true civil rights abuses. so, you saying that you don't have to go through all that they went through to draw parallels completely waters down the gains they fought so valiantly to obtain.
Brady
· 3 years ago
Hi Kurt, Thanks also for responding. You are right, this is a very heated issue that did indeed even create differing opinions in the King family. I agree that some people have taken the comparison between the two causes too far (as have many other groups--the illegal immigrant marches also come to mind). But, you're right, usurping a cause for another (especially one as enormous as the black civil rights movement) is not the way to go, and it isn't the right thing to do.
Kurt Wayne
· 3 years ago
Thanks, Randy. Two comments: 1. I remember visiting Fred Phelps' web site around year 2000, and feeling like I needed a tetanus shot afterwards. God loves and wants every member of his church (including Mr. Phelps) but...I wonder if we'll ever hear the story of someone who's left there. And if we do, will they go to the "politically correct" side, or the "Chuck Smith/Chuck Swindoll/James Dobson" side? 2. I honestly wonder if some in the GLBT radical left leadership know how deeply their "civil rights" comparisons genuinely irritate many black people? Or if they care? I feel for the pain so many of my GLBT friends have felt growing up. But, frankly, from birth it's quite difficult for one to be a "closeted black" person. (Sorry if that sounds harsh, as I only mean it as a statement of fact.)
kevin
· 3 years ago
I think the problem with equating black civil rights and gay civil rights is on the word "choice." Obviously being black is not a choice, therefore they should not be discriminated against. But is being gay a choice? I do not see that it is a choice and therefore I see it as a civil rights issue equivalent to racial civil rights. I am discriminated against because of who I am, not who I choose to be. Others do think it a choice, therefore it should not be a civil rights issue. I'm not sure we should be playing the 'who suffers more?' game with this issue. One suffers because he/she is black and another because he/she is gay. Both should be protected.
Scott
· 3 years ago
I have my idea on how to defend marriage. I'd like to see a law passed in several states that reads as follows: "Marriage in this state shall consist of only a first time married couple excluding the death of a spouse. Any marriage performed that involves a divorced person performed in any other state or territory shall be invalid in this state" I'd love to see all of you marriage defenders join me in this. Who's with me? Let's defend marriage!
Kurt Wayne
· 3 years ago
wants every member of his church (including Mr. Phelps) but...I wonder if we'll ever hear the story of someone who's left there. And if we do, will they go to the "politically correct" side, or the "Chuck Smith/Chuck Swindoll/James Dobson" side?
2. I honestly wonder if some in the GLBT radical left leadership know how deeply their "civil rights" comparisons genuinely irritate many black people? Or if they care?
I feel for the pain so many of my GLBT friends have felt growing up.
But, frankly, from birth it's quite difficult for one to be a "closeted black" person.
(Sorry if that sounds harsh, as I only mean it as a statement of fact.)
Brady
· 3 years ago
Hi Kurt,
I had the same feeling when I went over to Phelps' site a long time ago. Pretty unbelievable.
In response to your comment about civil rights and how it irritates many black people, I would like to point out that many black leaders, including Coretta Scott King believed, and stated publically, that gay rights are a civil rights issue, so it's not only those on the "radical left" that are making such claims. Certainly slavery and gay rights are not comparable and are not the same, but I don't believe groups have to have gone through the horror of slavery, jim crow, etc. to have their civil rights infringed upon.
As for the closeted black person thought, I agree with you on that one, but I'd also like to point out that few black people are kicked out of the homes of the very families that raised them just for "coming out as black" as teens (or even adults). Gay folks are one of the few minorities that so often have that kind of reaction from loved ones.
Being black and being gay are certainly very distinct, but I believe the two groups still have similarites enough to comment on.
Randy
· 3 years ago
which completely infers equal suffering the more they alienate those who survived/survive true civil rights abuses.
so, you saying that you don't have to go through all that they went through to draw parallels completely waters down the gains they fought so valiantly to obtain.
Brady
· 3 years ago
Hi Randy,
I actually don't think that saying that gay rights and the fight for civil rights for blacks is the same struggle. As I mentioned though, many prominent black civil rights leaders do disagree with me (and you) on that.
I think it is unfair, though, to completely dismiss the struggle of gay people- whether it is a personal or political one. Being denied employment or housing because I am gay or perceived to be gay certainly has never happened to me, but it is fully legal in many parts of the country.
Are the struggles the same? No. Are there NO similarities at all. None? In my opinion, No.
Kurt Wayne
· 3 years ago
Brady,
Thanks for the response.
This issue even split the King family...the was an article on this a year or two ago, with one of MLK's daughters was quoted as saying words to the effect of "I don't believe my father took a bullet for the cause of same-sex marriage".
Again, you very graciously make a point about the suffering many GLBT people endure. (And it goes without saying that this is not a Christian response...I've read words from a gay activist who witnessed Jerry Falwell saying that he would love and not expel from his house a son who came out as gay.)
But I've also seen black people who, politically, are probably left of me yet who have gotten visibly upset at the black/GLBT civil rights comparison. I just hope the latter group's leaders watch said comparisons as they may come back to haunt them some day.
Scott
· 3 years ago
I have my idea on how to defend marriage. I'd like to see a law passed in several states that reads as follows:
"Marriage in this state shall consist of only a first time married couple excluding the death of a spouse. Any marriage performed that involves a divorced person performed in any other state or territory shall be invalid in this state"
I'd love to see all of you marriage defenders join me in this. Who's with me? Let's defend marriage!
kevin
· 3 years ago
I think the problem with equating black civil rights and gay civil rights is on the word "choice." Obviously being black is not a choice, therefore they should not be discriminated against. But is being gay a choice? I do not see that it is a choice and therefore I see it as a civil rights issue equivalent to racial civil rights. I am discriminated against because of who I am, not who I choose to be. Others do think it a choice, therefore it should not be a civil rights issue. I'm not sure we should be playing the 'who suffers more?' game with this issue. One suffers because he/she is black and another because he/she is gay. Both should be protected.
Kurt Wayne
· 3 years ago
Kevin,
Your comments take me back to a (black) Atlanta radio show host named "Ralph from Ben Hill".
An interesting guy, he used to say how he believed the "black gene" was superior to the "white one". When pressed for an answer, he'd say:
"White father, black mother, black baby. Black father, white mother, black baby."
I don't even think those who promote the existence of the "gay gene" use or can use logic like that.
But it also shows how it's pretty hard to hide one's "blackness" from the moment of birth. And while we've all heard (or experienced) stories of kids who grew up to be be gay adults even while no one ever suspected anything, such stories never existed for the black community. And a higher number of black kids got to see the consequences, I surmise, than their GLBT ones.
I don't think the "choice" component is the one that angers people in this argument as much as the "evident from birth" one...
Brady
· 3 years ago
Hi Kurt,
Thanks also for responding. You are right, this is a very heated issue that did indeed even create differing opinions in the King family.
I agree that some people have taken the comparison between the two causes too far (as have many other groups--the illegal immigrant marches also come to mind). But, you're right, usurping a cause for another (especially one as enormous as the black civil rights movement) is not the way to go, and it isn't the right thing to do.
kevin
· 3 years ago
Hey Kurt--I can definitely see your point. I don't think I was clear in what I was saying. It seems that if a gay gene were to be found, then the civil rights fight would be the same as black civil rights. I think the "evidence from birth issue" is directly related to the "choice issue" that people use to keep gays and lesbians out of the civil rights movement. People accept that being black is not a choice, but some people do not accept that being gay is not a choice. Of course, it is easier to see the color of one's skin than it is to see that a baby might be born gay or lesbian. I guess people have a hard time understanding what they cannot see. I hope I'm a bit clearer!
Randy
· 3 years ago
There isn't any reputable, or more important replicated, science out there to indicate homosexuality is genetic.
Even if it were, there are many of us who did choose the direction of our lives away from being gay and stewarding our sexuality in a way that goes against what gay ideology dictates.
I didn't choose to have same sex attraction and lived with it quite comfortably until I was 24. After a few months as a Christian I did "choose" to leave being "gay" behind and choose to steward my sexuality in a way that is congruent with my values. MANY will do the same and that in and of itself is a BIG difference between a "gay" identified community and those who have legitimately earned protected class status under "rights" based legislation.
In other words the only unifying elements of the gay identified community is the empathy to be found in being attracted to the same sex, social reactions to that, and the evolving belief system over what it all means. Part of that is the culturally imposed sense of persecution. It is bizarre for me to see very successful gay identified men and women, couples talk about how they are persecuted when their standard of living is the same or far exceeds anyone I know. Gay "rights" is not about genetics, not about widespread documented pattern of discrimination and not about community wide economic disenfranchisement. All three of which are criteria for civil rights protections.
Sure, let's talk about shame, free will, and personal responsibility but for some to say (not that you specifically are) that gay activist talking points are the only reality or viable arguments in public policy and "rights" issues is not true.
Kurt Wayne
· 3 years ago
Well put, Randy!
kevin
· 3 years ago
Randy--I am not going to argue with you about genetics. You say there is no reputable scientific evidence to say that it is genetic, and I say there is no reputable scientific evidence to say it is a choice. You say you have chosen and I am not arguing with you about that. I am saying that I did not choose--and I don't see how you can argue with me about that. And just because it has not been scientifically proven does not make it, in any way, unprovable in the future. I think you are way off base to say that "the only unifying elements of the gay identified community is the empathy to be found in being attracted to the same sex, social reactions to that, and the evolving belief system over what it all means. Part of that is the culturally imposed sense of persecution." So we've created our own persecution complex? And is this persecution not a real persecution and discrimination? Maybe that was your experience, but that certainly isn't mine.
kurt_t
· 3 years ago
I dunno, Randy. Who's saying that the push for same-sex marriage is equivalent to or analogous to the civil rights movements of the '50s and '60s? I mean, it's kind of a stretch no matter where you stand on the issue, isn't it?
I've thought for a long time that a lot of what we (and by "we" I mean The Gay Agenda, inc.) think of as "gay rights" issues are not so much civil rights issues but more public policy issues.
Gays in the military, same-sex marriage, gay adoption, hate crimes legislation. I think the big question with all those issues is "What policy best serves the public interest?" not "What policy doesn't persecute gay people?"
Randy
· 3 years ago
kevin you, as a scholar, know that arguing from silence is a no no. I stated a fact and you countered with what might be a good hypothesis but far from a workable tested theory.
I recognize your point of view but that in no way negates or undermines my or other "ex-gay" reality.
Every human suffers in this world. My reality is that my level of suffering and perceived persecution (along with a few instances of real persecution) significantly lessened once I left behind the limitations of a gay defined worldview/expectations and pursued freedom in Christ.
You say that is your reality...this is mine and this world contains us both.
Randy
· 3 years ago
Thanks Kurt W for the encouragement and Kurt t for you input. I agree with you but as we see ... there are vastly different beliefs as to what is in the public interest.
kurt_t
· 3 years ago
I dunno, Randy. Who's saying that the push for same-sex marriage is equivalent to or analogous to the civil rights movements of the '50s and '60s? I mean, it's kind of a stretch no matter where you stand on the issue, isn't it? I've thought for a long time that a lot of what we (and by "we" I mean The Gay Agenda, inc.) think of as "gay rights" issues are not so much civil rights issues but more public policy issues. Gays in the military, same-sex marriage, gay adoption, hate crimes legislation. I think the big question with all those issues is "What policy best serves the public interest?" not "What policy doesn't persecute gay people?"
Kurt Wayne
· 3 years ago
Well put, Randy!
kevin
· 3 years ago
Randy--I am not going to argue with you about genetics. You say there is no reputable scientific evidence to say that it is genetic, and I say there is no reputable scientific evidence to say it is a choice. You say you have chosen and I am not arguing with you about that. I am saying that I did not choose--and I don't see how you can argue with me about that. And just because it has not been scientifically proven does not make it, in any way, unprovable in the future. I think you are way off base to say that "the only unifying elements of the gay identified community is the empathy to be found in being attracted to the same sex, social reactions to that, and the evolving belief system over what it all means. Part of that is the culturally imposed sense of persecution." So we've created our own persecution complex? And is this persecution not a real persecution and discrimination? Maybe that was your experience, but that certainly isn't mine.
kevin
· 3 years ago
Randy--I wasn't going to bother replying, but since your last comment sounded a bit on the patronizing side... As a scholar I do know that arguing from silence is not a no-no--especially when there is no other information to go on. This, of course, is not done in a vacuum and there has to be some basis in fact to do this. That is what an educated guess is and it happens all the time in scholarship. This is how knowledge moves forwards (and backwards). This includes scientific knowledge in the medical field (and yes, I have published in medical journals in my previous career) and in the humanities. The problem is when scientific knowledge becomes politicized (as we see in the case of choice vs. genetic). And I would like to be pointed to some scientific evidence that being gay is (or may be) a choice.
All Comments
so, you saying that you don't have to go through all that they went through to draw parallels completely waters down the gains they fought so valiantly to obtain.
Thanks also for responding. You are right, this is a very heated issue that did indeed even create differing opinions in the King family.
I agree that some people have taken the comparison between the two causes too far (as have many other groups--the illegal immigrant marches also come to mind). But, you're right, usurping a cause for another (especially one as enormous as the black civil rights movement) is not the way to go, and it isn't the right thing to do.
1. I remember visiting Fred Phelps' web site around year 2000, and feeling like I needed a tetanus shot afterwards.
God loves and wants every member of his church (including Mr. Phelps) but...I wonder if we'll ever hear the story of someone who's left there. And if we do, will they go to the "politically correct" side, or the "Chuck Smith/Chuck Swindoll/James Dobson" side?
2. I honestly wonder if some in the GLBT radical left leadership know how deeply their "civil rights" comparisons genuinely irritate many black people? Or if they care?
I feel for the pain so many of my GLBT friends have felt growing up.
But, frankly, from birth it's quite difficult for one to be a "closeted black" person.
(Sorry if that sounds harsh, as I only mean it as a statement of fact.)
I'm not sure we should be playing the 'who suffers more?' game with this issue. One suffers because he/she is black and another because he/she is gay. Both should be protected.
"Marriage in this state shall consist of only a first time married couple excluding the death of a spouse. Any marriage performed that involves a divorced person performed in any other state or territory shall be invalid in this state"
I'd love to see all of you marriage defenders join me in this. Who's with me? Let's defend marriage!
2. I honestly wonder if some in the GLBT radical left leadership know how deeply their "civil rights" comparisons genuinely irritate many black people? Or if they care?
I feel for the pain so many of my GLBT friends have felt growing up.
But, frankly, from birth it's quite difficult for one to be a "closeted black" person.
(Sorry if that sounds harsh, as I only mean it as a statement of fact.)
I had the same feeling when I went over to Phelps' site a long time ago. Pretty unbelievable.
In response to your comment about civil rights and how it irritates many black people, I would like to point out that many black leaders, including Coretta Scott King believed, and stated publically, that gay rights are a civil rights issue, so it's not only those on the "radical left" that are making such claims. Certainly slavery and gay rights are not comparable and are not the same, but I don't believe groups have to have gone through the horror of slavery, jim crow, etc. to have their civil rights infringed upon.
As for the closeted black person thought, I agree with you on that one, but I'd also like to point out that few black people are kicked out of the homes of the very families that raised them just for "coming out as black" as teens (or even adults). Gay folks are one of the few minorities that so often have that kind of reaction from loved ones.
Being black and being gay are certainly very distinct, but I believe the two groups still have similarites enough to comment on.
so, you saying that you don't have to go through all that they went through to draw parallels completely waters down the gains they fought so valiantly to obtain.
I actually don't think that saying that gay rights and the fight for civil rights for blacks is the same struggle. As I mentioned though, many prominent black civil rights leaders do disagree with me (and you) on that.
I think it is unfair, though, to completely dismiss the struggle of gay people- whether it is a personal or political one. Being denied employment or housing because I am gay or perceived to be gay certainly has never happened to me, but it is fully legal in many parts of the country.
Are the struggles the same? No. Are there NO similarities at all. None? In my opinion, No.
Thanks for the response.
This issue even split the King family...the was an article on this a year or two ago, with one of MLK's daughters was quoted as saying words to the effect of "I don't believe my father took a bullet for the cause of same-sex marriage".
Again, you very graciously make a point about the suffering many GLBT people endure. (And it goes without saying that this is not a Christian response...I've read words from a gay activist who witnessed Jerry Falwell saying that he would love and not expel from his house a son who came out as gay.)
But I've also seen black people who, politically, are probably left of me yet who have gotten visibly upset at the black/GLBT civil rights comparison. I just hope the latter group's leaders watch said comparisons as they may come back to haunt them some day.
"Marriage in this state shall consist of only a first time married couple excluding the death of a spouse. Any marriage performed that involves a divorced person performed in any other state or territory shall be invalid in this state"
I'd love to see all of you marriage defenders join me in this. Who's with me? Let's defend marriage!
I'm not sure we should be playing the 'who suffers more?' game with this issue. One suffers because he/she is black and another because he/she is gay. Both should be protected.
Your comments take me back to a (black) Atlanta radio show host named "Ralph from Ben Hill".
An interesting guy, he used to say how he believed the "black gene" was superior to the "white one". When pressed for an answer, he'd say:
"White father, black mother, black baby.
Black father, white mother, black baby."
I don't even think those who promote the existence of the "gay gene" use or can use logic like that.
But it also shows how it's pretty hard to hide one's "blackness" from the moment of birth. And while we've all heard (or experienced) stories of kids who grew up to be be gay adults even while no one ever suspected anything, such stories never existed for the black community. And a higher number of black kids got to see the consequences, I surmise, than their GLBT ones.
I don't think the "choice" component is the one that angers people in this argument as much as the "evident from birth" one...
Thanks also for responding. You are right, this is a very heated issue that did indeed even create differing opinions in the King family.
I agree that some people have taken the comparison between the two causes too far (as have many other groups--the illegal immigrant marches also come to mind). But, you're right, usurping a cause for another (especially one as enormous as the black civil rights movement) is not the way to go, and it isn't the right thing to do.
Even if it were, there are many of us who did choose the direction of our lives away from being gay and stewarding our sexuality in a way that goes against what gay ideology dictates.
I didn't choose to have same sex attraction and lived with it quite comfortably until I was 24. After a few months as a Christian I did "choose" to leave being "gay" behind and choose to steward my sexuality in a way that is congruent with my values. MANY will do the same and that in and of itself is a BIG difference between a "gay" identified community and those who have legitimately earned protected class status under "rights" based legislation.
In other words the only unifying elements of the gay identified community is the empathy to be found in being attracted to the same sex, social reactions to that, and the evolving belief system over what it all means. Part of that is the culturally imposed sense of persecution. It is bizarre for me to see very successful gay identified men and women, couples talk about how they are persecuted when their standard of living is the same or far exceeds anyone I know. Gay "rights" is not about genetics, not about widespread documented pattern of discrimination and not about community wide economic disenfranchisement. All three of which are criteria for civil rights protections.
Sure, let's talk about shame, free will, and personal responsibility but for some to say (not that you specifically are) that gay activist talking points are the only reality or viable arguments in public policy and "rights" issues is not true.
Maybe that was your experience, but that certainly isn't mine.
I've thought for a long time that a lot of what we (and by "we" I mean The Gay Agenda, inc.) think of as "gay rights" issues are not so much civil rights issues but more public policy issues.
Gays in the military, same-sex marriage, gay adoption, hate crimes legislation. I think the big question with all those issues is "What policy best serves the public interest?" not "What policy doesn't persecute gay people?"
I recognize your point of view but that in no way negates or undermines my or other "ex-gay" reality.
Every human suffers in this world. My reality is that my level of suffering and perceived persecution (along with a few instances of real persecution) significantly lessened once I left behind the limitations of a gay defined worldview/expectations and pursued freedom in Christ.
You say that is your reality...this is mine and this world contains us both.
I've thought for a long time that a lot of what we (and by "we" I mean The Gay Agenda, inc.) think of as "gay rights" issues are not so much civil rights issues but more public policy issues.
Gays in the military, same-sex marriage, gay adoption, hate crimes legislation. I think the big question with all those issues is "What policy best serves the public interest?" not "What policy doesn't persecute gay people?"
Maybe that was your experience, but that certainly isn't mine.
As a scholar I do know that arguing from silence is not a no-no--especially when there is no other information to go on. This, of course, is not done in a vacuum and there has to be some basis in fact to do this. That is what an educated guess is and it happens all the time in scholarship. This is how knowledge moves forwards (and backwards). This includes scientific knowledge in the medical field (and yes, I have published in medical journals in my previous career) and in the humanities. The problem is when scientific knowledge becomes politicized (as we see in the case of choice vs. genetic).
And I would like to be pointed to some scientific evidence that being gay is (or may be) a choice.