The last sentence on the news piece: "the demand is high for Exodus's services... because there is still shame associated with being gay". Here's your sign! In 1986 I had a supernatural experience that literally scared the hell out of me and I returned to Jesus Christ... out of fear of hell. After six months of that "supernatural" experience I found myself in a relationship with a man 20 yrs my senior. After a year of partying, expensive living, rubbing elbows with the rich and [some] famous, I found myself alone [having broken up which the person I thought was "the one"]. I spent almost another year spending my weekends at home medicating my loneliness with alcohol. I would go to adult bookstores for magazines, but would never pursue any encounter or contact with another human being. I had faced the fact that true [gay] love/relationship could never be found whether in a bar, a GLBT community committee, the movie stalls in bookstores or the Gay Metropolitan Church. So I medicated myself until one Sunday afternoon/evening. I had just about finished my second gallon of Carlo Rossi wine when I came to the end of myself. I finally had enough. I finally cried out and surrendered to the Lordship of Christ by way of a simple Gospel message on the TV. That was 21 years ago. Though I walked away from my gay identity, I have struggled [yes, I confess! :) ] to truly trust Jesus, to forgive myself and others, and to embrace the man that God had created [in me] from the first [before time]. It has by no means been easy. I must have given up innumerable times. But He pursued me, and never gave up on me. It takes faith and trust in God to please Him. The Word of God states that we should not ever expect to have our prayer answered with out faith and trust in the expectant answer to those prayers. I didn't mean for this to be a lengthy personal testimony, but what makes Exodus Intl. different from other secular organizations is because it is faith-based. And no created being has any right to be so presumptuous as to tell me it doesn't work or it will not last. No one can has the right to judge and sentence my experiences. All things are possible to him who believes! I can't wait to cast my crown before Him and look into the face of the One who took me for His own and set me free!
kate
· 1 year ago
Randy, Happy, happy RE-birthday!
Randy
· 1 year ago
@kate - sankyouveddymuch. I want to clarify something though. Usually "re-birthday" means the Christian "born-again" or "second birth" of the Spirit. I actually became a Christian in May of 1992. Today is the anniversary date of my prayer time with the Lord in which He changed my heart concerning His intent for my identity and sexuality. So, it really isn't my "re-birthday" per se ... it's just a huge personal milestone. Sorry if I confused you Kate.
Randy
· 1 year ago
@Greg P. - Wow ... Carlo Rossi ... ::: blech ::: I am so glad you are alive :).
Seriously. Thank you very much for sharing your story with us. I am glad to have met you at the conference and pray that your continued journey is full of joy.
Julie
· 1 year ago
Happy Anniversary, Randy.
I don't remember the exact day of mine, but I do know this summer marks my fourth anniversary. I remember God calling me back to Him a few times during the spring and summer of '04, and when I finally said yes to Him, it was such a relief. (It hurts to wrestle with God!)
It was scary, also, saying yes to Him, because I had to leave behind everything I held onto, and like Greg, I still struggle to truly Trust Jesus, and like Lot's wife, I still look back once in awhile (though it has been a long while, come to think about it) but I was just so grateful to have some Truth in my life. And the Truth comes clearer and clearer through my walk with Him.
ANYWAY, I'm so grateful for the work Exodus does, including the Freedom Conference. Yeah, freedom!
Yuri
· 1 year ago
C'mon Randy, you're so gay, that voice, those eyes...
Amy
· 1 year ago
Congratulations....isn't God good! It will be 7 years Thanksgiving Day for me. Praise Him!
Randy
· 1 year ago
@Julie - Thank you Julie. I can relate to the different seasons of "looking back." But I can also relate to the truth becoming clearer along the way. Thanks for sharing a bit of your testimony. I am grateful for you.
Now that we have the jr. high response out of the way ... what else ya' got? ::: as masculine as I can make it chuckle, taking my hand off my hip while looking sternly through my incredible eyelashes :::
Randy
· 1 year ago
@Amy - wonderful! Thanksgiving no less. Thanks for jumping in and sharing.
Jay
· 1 year ago
Meh, it's been a little over two years now. It wasn't a decision to "leave gay identity" (because I still can't get anyone to adequately define what they mean by "gay identity"). It was just a decision to follow Christ and do whatever would be pleasing to Him. If that meant abstaining from sex, so be it. That certainly hasn't been my biggest problem over the past two years.
I haven't done the best, but I'm working on it. My faith is slow and plodding, meticulous and analytical, and I view this subject "matter-of-factly" and with as little fanfare as possible, because is it really such a big deal when compared to the sins of selfishness and pride that every single Christian deals with?
I will say, however, that just because someone believes differently than I do about what constitutes sexual sin, that does not mean they have "defined their lives within the parameters of modern gay ideology." There are plenty of gay men and women who view their sex lives in the same way I view my lack of one -- "matter-of-factly" and with as little fuss as possible.
I know men and women who don't drink, don't go to clubs, are in stable, long-term relationships, and are genuinely happy. These are the people that I think many ex-gay ministries fail (or don't try) to reach out to, because they seem to have the idea that any "gay lifestyle" is like the one in Greg's testimony. It's not. The reason we do this is not because we "wanted more" or because we were unhappy in a "gay identified life." It's because we wanted Christ. Earthly happiness is a secondary side-effect at best.
Randy
· 1 year ago
@Jay - Thanks for sharing your beliefs and story. When I refer to gay ideology... I am not talking about bar culture (even though that is a part of it.) In fact your seeming need to make sure the non-sensational are represented is a non-verbalized expectation of gay ideology to "balance" what is assumed as negative.
I don't mean gay ideology in purely a negative manner even though I found it to be legalistic and limiting as a whole. I mean I believe it is an ideology that comes with a general worldview of what it means to be "gay."
There are many lifestyles represented within gay ideology. I do believe there are core beliefs and worldviews associated with the modern context of being "gay." That would be the basis and reason I use the phrase "gay ideology."
Jay
· 1 year ago
In fact your seeming need to make sure the non-sensational are represented is a non-verbalized expectation of gay ideology to “balance” what is assumed as negative.
So, let me get this straight... Wanting something to be fair and balanced is an "expectation of gay ideology" now? I should send a memo to Fox News...
Look, if you want to say there is such a thing as "gay ideology," then you need to give a point-by-point list of what it entails, and then you had better make sure that every gay person adheres to every one of those points. Otherwise, the whole thing falls on its face. That, or you could subcategorize "gay ideology" into many smaller ideologies that could fall under the larger whole (in the same way one could subcategorize Christian ideology). But that would require research and pointed questions about what individuals believe about their sexuality and identity, not just what you've observed in your personal interactions with people
Every gay individual will have a different view of what being gay means to them (although I admit some views will be similar). That should be inconsequential to us. We view homosexual behavior as a sin and homoerotic desires as a temptation to sin, and that's that.
1. the body of doctrine, myth, belief, etc., that guides an individual, social movement, institution, class, or large group ...
I think its an obvious cultural universal that *any* community of people who identify with one another, on any level, have some sort of communal ideology aside from the personal implementation of their convictions and identity. I don't think I have to outline a complete thorough gay ideology thesis, on a blogpost about my own testimony, in order for others to eaisly understand and relate too.
If there wasn't a gay ideology, "coming out" would have no meaning as being a shared experience. That's just one example. There also wouldn't be any national organizations to represent those who identify as gay. You would have millions of gay individuals and no gay community if there wasn't an underlying gay ideology at some level.
Just as Christian communities and orgs vary ... there are core principles that underlie what it means to be "Christian." Individuals vary. Different gay communities vary. National org's missions and purpose vary ... but I think it is a no-brainer to assert that the gay community has a core ideology that spans the entire community of those who have adopted "gay" as their primary identity.
That said, defining gay ideology thoroughly is a great idea. I am sure that there are plenty of others, who identify as gay or not, who have written about this. It's not a new to me idea and doesn't have to be negative even though I personally reject being "gay" as an identity and an avenue of sexual expression ... for sixteen years now.
What IS this "core ideology" of the gay community? Being gay myself, I'd like to know. Surely you can give a brief explanation.
Randy
· 1 year ago
@Alex - I identified as gay from 10 to 24 and then started a 16 year journey of comparison/contrast of the gay worldview with the Christian worldview I now guide my life by.
It cannot be encapsulated in a blog comment response. But, using the example above I will try to give brief example for each of the definition's points.
1. the body of doctrine,
let's go with religious doctrine even though doctrine could mean a lot of things. "God is love and would never condemn my love for my same sex partner." For the non-religious, "my love, while not exactly the same in expression and morality, has the the exact same benefits and equal to heterosexual love personally and with regard to social impact."
myth, belief, etc.,
so many to choose from but one belief was that 10 percent of the population was gay. From what I understand even gay activists are backing away from that number.
Another myth is that homosexuality has already been proven to be genetic. Scientifically speaking it might be a good hypothesis but farrrrr from a tested theory that produces repeated empirical data necessary before considering something natural law.
The belief, and I consider a myth, that the gay rights movement is synonymous with the civil rights movement of MLK.
Final myth for this comment is that people can't change and to do so is harmful. I know personally that isn't true for everyone including myself.
... that guides an individual,
gay ideology contends if you have same sex attractions you are gay and in order to be content you must accept that as a primary identity attribute and pursue romantic and/or erotic relationships with the same sex. To not identify as gay and pursue gay relationships is considered harmful to yourself and the "gay" community by not "coming out." Whatever your politics, religion or lack of religion you must contend for certain basic socio/political goals. Any deviations from these expectations is met with disapproval, condescension or outright stigmatizing scorn.
social movement, institution, class, or large group …
Movement: "gay rights." Institutions: HRC, GLAAD, MCC, GLSEN etc ... class (trying to change all relevant public policy to consider being "gay" as a protected class). Large group: "pride" parades give pictures to this.
So, Alex, are you going to contend that the gay identified community, that I have identified with, been in and still in dialog with for 30 years is somehow different than any community past, present or future and not have an ideology?
This assumed ideological basis is pretty basic sociology. In fact, and I am not being flip, I believe I learned that principle (universal communal ideology) in High School when the topic of sociology was brought up in Civics class.
Is it not allowed to even identify a core communal ideology much less challenge it? That is rhetorical of course. I believe that some who identify as gay are as legalistic with their beliefs as any Christian I have met who is legalistic about theirs.
I personally challenged what the gay community was telling me, or assuming, as "fact." I didn't choose to have same sex attractions but I eventually discovered I do have a choice in what I do about them, how I think about myself and what I support in my relationships and community. Identifying as gay and core gay ideology is not the avenue I wanted to pursue and is really no longer an option I even consider.
Karen Booth
· 1 year ago
I just logged on to this discussion after seeing the link at ::: edit :::. I am put in mind of the two broad worldviews Mark Yarhouse has identified in his research into sexual identity. This is an oversimplification, but individuals he has counseled tended to embrace either a “discovery” or “integration” metaphor in their experience of same-sex attraction.
In the “discovery” metaphor (which is the predominant cultural model, at least in the mainstream media), same-sex attraction is experienced and through a natural process of self-discovery (not always smooth) homosexual orientation and LGBT identity is realized, understood and adopted. Experience – attraction and behavior – and identity/being are collapsed into one complete whole; there is little feeling of “choice” involved, and (often) anyone who doesn’t follow this natural progression is considered to be “in the closet” or in denial. (Many of the comments Wayne Besen has made in his writings assume this worldview.) Yarhouse also noted that if there was a conflict with religious training or conviction, beliefs typically morphed to align with experience.
In the “integration” metaphor, same-sex attraction is not interpreted as a natural (or welcome) progression and the individual chooses how to respond to and integrate these experiences into his/her life. If there was conflict with religious training or conviction, usually, but not always, behavior was modified to align with belief.
In a presentation Yarhouse did for my ministry this spring in Fort Worth, he used some graphics to support his theories (which I don’t remember exactly, so the following figures are an estimate) that showed roughly 6-7% of those surveyed in the US experienced same-sex attraction at some time in their lives. Fewer reported having a homosexual orientation. Fewer still identified as LGBT.
I don’t know what Randy and others mean by “gay ideology.” But I think these two fundamentally different worldviews are at the heart of this and the broader religious and cultural discussions. And I don’t see much in the way of common ground.
Randy, praise God for your anniversary! You’re one of my favorite men of God.
Randy
· 1 year ago
@Karen Booth - Karen, thank you very much for the helpful comment. I deleted the reference to where you saw the link because of a personal policy of mine to not promote them in any way on my blog ... nothing personal.
LOVE the helpful information though. Thank you. We posted around the same time so I hope my response is helpful. There is only so much one can do in a blog comment.
Janey
· 1 year ago
This was a good read.
16 years is a long time...
I liked what you said, "I came out of the closet to discover I was in the wrong house," That's a good one. :)
For me, I had this crazy idea thinking I was the first in nearly 2000 years to have this revelation...that I didn't have to be gay. At the time I was 14 years old.
And that was 16 yrs ago!
But my journey didn't involve a wonderful blissful time of seriouse committment.
Just shortly after my experience with the Lord I saw an interview with John and Anne Paulk on Oprah. It was then I had found out about Exodus and LWO.
My journey included a seriouse conversion in my youth and then even went to Bible College. I came to struggle with the fact that healing and freedom hadn't been coming on my terms and in my time frame and so I decided to say, "well, I tried the Christian life and it's not for me and it didn't work for me,"
When I came back and re-surrendered my life to the Lord I thought back to all my experiences and times with the Lord when He really did show up.
It was 2005 the summer I applied to be a participant in the Living Waters program.
I told myself 2 things...
1. I tried everything but Living Waters (and) 2. Christianity isn't something I try on to see if it fits...
Meaning, I had this revelation that my journey had little to do with God actually removing my same-sex desires and everything to do with God revealing to me who He intended me to be and my journey would be a process of discovering who He created me to be as a woman created in His image.
And well, I guess if God works in me so much where He makes a heterosexual relationship possible I'm open to that. However, I'm quite content single and I've been committed to being single for 11 years now. I don't regret that decision at all!
Thanks for explaining what you mean by "gay ideology." I disagree with several parts, however, and it saddens me that people need to identify with any ideology, whether gay, ex-gay, Christian, or whatever, in order to feel whole and important. I do not fit many of the criteria you mentioned as part of "gay ideology," yet I'm still gay (insofar as "gay" means "homosexual," without any sociopolitical connotations).
Choosing not to have sex with men and choosing not to identify with the gay subculture doesn't change a thing about who I am -- merely what I do. At the end of the day, I will always be homosexual. And people like the gentleman in the video, who have one negative experience with being gay and run for the hills, are just kidding themselves. Just because you had one bad relationship doesn't mean you should or can try to change who you are. I doubt a heterosexual man would say, "The first and only girl I've ever dated turned out to be a lying cheater who just used me for sex. I can only assume that this is what all straight relationships are like, so from now on I'm going to date men." It's silly and, in my opinion, tragic.
Randy
· 1 year ago
@Alex - Alex, thank you for your opinion but I doubt you honestly think a person's life can be adequately portrayed in a 4 minute nightly news spot.
Speaking on behalf of myself, I was an "out and proud" gay man ... who in my heart was never satisfied even though I said the exact same things you are saying. I challenged everything I believed and knew by placing my faith in Christ and questioning fundamental assumptions. I didn't "run for the hills." I am standing right in front of you unashamed of who I was and am.
I was gay and now I am not. Thousands of others can say the same.
Choosing not to have sex with men and choosing not to identify with the gay subculture doesn’t change a thing about who I am?—?merely what I do. At the end of the day, I will always be homosexual.
My guess is that this is another example of gay ideology ... you say you "are" and always will be partly (others would say completely) defined by your attractions (as homosexual).
I believe homosexuality is something that might change partly or completley but regardless of my sexual proclivities changing or not changing, they don't define any part of my primary identity or worldview.
Who I am completely changed even though I never envisioned the possibility or what it would look like today. And if my goals stay the same and I abide in Christ, they won't define who I am or how I behave in the future either.
by not having sex with men and not identifying as gay *my* life completely changed for the better. I "changed" and am changing in many ways before, during and after the sexual orientation shifts that have occurred in my life.
I believe that what we do is directly linked with who we think we are and what our goals and vision for the future hold.
Jay Schlosser
· 1 year ago
Randy,
I want to express to you how grateful I am that your in the world. Im grateful God has raised you up, set you free, and given you a vision and ministry for the lost. You are such an example to me as a man that also HAD a gay identity. You say what I feel. You have paved the way (as so many others have as well). I too believe God is raising me up for "such a time as this"! I look forward to the days ahead.
THANK YOU MY BROTHER!
PS Why is the YOUTUBE video in this blog not working? Did they make sure it would not work due to the "nature" of the topic? Jay Schlosser Jer. 17:7
Randy
· 1 year ago
Thank you very much Jay for your very nice encouragement.
I am not surprised that it was eventually taken off. A lot of news programs don't like their clips being used on youtube. The MSM is very much money driven and they actually sell those clips (so I have heard.) So, while the reporter was very cool, I am sure the editors are too ... it could very well be that the station caught wind of the clip and asked for it's removal.
Or... sometimes YouTube is just flakey and it will start working again later.
Thank you again for the very nice note.
Jay Schlosser
· 1 year ago
Alex,
Why do you say its "tragic" to think someone wants to change their life and choices. It is really no different than someone who has a habit they dont like, a drinking problem, or porn addiction. I have had several of these issues in my own life. Why is it that we can on one side be so "open" and honest - and then when someone wants to make a different way for themselves - choose to walk a different life - a different way of thinking - its tragic?
Why is it that openness/living free cannot be for everyone?
Jonathan
· 10 months ago
I'd like to see the actual video if anyone has a mirror of the youtube clip somewhere :)
Randy
· 10 months ago
I think Eric DiDia (on Facebook) has it on his facebook video area.
5233
· 10 months ago
Hey, why was my post deleted? I was jokingly reffering to this: ::: as masculine as I can make it chuckle, taking my hand off my hip while looking sternly through my incredible eyelashes :::
Wasn't trying to be offensive, what the heck?
5233
· 10 months ago
I meant of course like literally roleplaying on a chat, MUCK, MUD or MMORPG or whatever. Heh.
Randy
· 10 months ago
If you haven't, you may want to read my discussion policy linked underneath the blog banner. I will respond further on the second comment.
Randy
· 10 months ago
I don't know what MUCK, MUD or any of that stuff is so role-playing usually means one thing. Glad it wasn't that and thank you for clarifying.
5233
· 10 months ago
Yeah, I wasn't trying to insult you, dude. They're terms for different graphical or text based chat and roleplaying clients. MMORPG for example = massively multiplayer online role-playing game.
Randy
· 10 months ago
I am very glad to hear that. Out of curiousity... did you pick 5233 as a name or is that something automatic if you don't fill that form in? Not complaining but I think you are the first number to start commenting here :-)
5233
· 10 months ago
It's a random number I made up years ago for anonymity.
5233
· 10 months ago
I'm not saying anything against you personally, but that comment that person made kind of lead me to think about why gay guys tend to have feminine characteristics (if they were not born that way, a theory of which I am skeptical of). On TV we see the stereotypical thin gay guys with nicely plucked eyebrows and stylish haircuts. Do you think their lack of a masculine appearance early on in life bolstered their identity and desire to adhere and emphasize on a less masculine appearance later?
Randy
· 10 months ago
Thanks for saying it isn't personally about me but as a guy and as a guy who used to be gay and as a guy who used to be gay who still has feminine affectations ... it is about me too.
Not all guys who identify as gay have feminine characteristics. There is a wide spectrum. And the reasons for it are multi-causal. Temperment, how they learned to communicate, possible gender ambivalence or detachment, definition of masculine may be wrong or simply different than yours ... so much. The danger is in reducing a man to his appearance and qualities that irritate instead of seeing him for all that he is.
I know quite a few men that the world would dismiss as "queens" or still "queeny" even if they have turned away from a gay worldview. Some of these men are more of a "man" than their critics.
I had zero definition of what was masculine or not until after I became a Christian and realized that there was a purpose for God creating gender. My feminine characteristics were because I was surrounded with and only communicated with women for the first 9 or so years of my life. Plus, again, I had no counterbalance in a Dad or peers. When I was gay I hyped it up to get attention but now that I am not I can still be a ham but I hope not in a negative way.
I may die with my affectations still around and I am quite ok with it.
5233
· 10 months ago
Yeah, thanks for replying.
I can understand what you're saying, and I was thinking that too. Because they learned these behaviors, they can still have a tendency to act that way even after rejecting a gay lifestyle and identity.
Randy
· 10 months ago
One friend compares it to having an accent after learning a new language. That's simplistic but bears witness with my experience.
All Comments
Happy, happy RE-birthday!
sankyouveddymuch. I want to clarify something though. Usually "re-birthday" means the Christian "born-again" or "second birth" of the Spirit. I actually became a Christian in May of 1992. Today is the anniversary date of my prayer time with the Lord in which He changed my heart concerning His intent for my identity and sexuality. So, it really isn't my "re-birthday" per se ... it's just a huge personal milestone. Sorry if I confused you Kate.
Wow ... Carlo Rossi ... ::: blech ::: I am so glad you are alive :).
Seriously. Thank you very much for sharing your story with us. I am glad to have met you at the conference and pray that your continued journey is full of joy.
I don't remember the exact day of mine, but I do know this summer marks my fourth anniversary. I remember God calling me back to Him a few times during the spring and summer of '04, and when I finally said yes to Him, it was such a relief. (It hurts to wrestle with God!)
It was scary, also, saying yes to Him, because I had to leave behind everything I held onto, and like Greg, I still struggle to truly Trust Jesus, and like Lot's wife, I still look back once in awhile (though it has been a long while, come to think about it) but I was just so grateful to have some Truth in my life. And the Truth comes clearer and clearer through my walk with Him.
ANYWAY, I'm so grateful for the work Exodus does, including the Freedom Conference. Yeah, freedom!
Now that we have the jr. high response out of the way ... what else ya' got? ::: as masculine as I can make it chuckle, taking my hand off my hip while looking sternly through my incredible eyelashes :::
I haven't done the best, but I'm working on it. My faith is slow and plodding, meticulous and analytical, and I view this subject "matter-of-factly" and with as little fanfare as possible, because is it really such a big deal when compared to the sins of selfishness and pride that every single Christian deals with?
I will say, however, that just because someone believes differently than I do about what constitutes sexual sin, that does not mean they have "defined their lives within the parameters of modern gay ideology." There are plenty of gay men and women who view their sex lives in the same way I view my lack of one -- "matter-of-factly" and with as little fuss as possible.
I know men and women who don't drink, don't go to clubs, are in stable, long-term relationships, and are genuinely happy. These are the people that I think many ex-gay ministries fail (or don't try) to reach out to, because they seem to have the idea that any "gay lifestyle" is like the one in Greg's testimony. It's not. The reason we do this is not because we "wanted more" or because we were unhappy in a "gay identified life." It's because we wanted Christ. Earthly happiness is a secondary side-effect at best.
I don't mean gay ideology in purely a negative manner even though I found it to be legalistic and limiting as a whole. I mean I believe it is an ideology that comes with a general worldview of what it means to be "gay."
There are many lifestyles represented within gay ideology. I do believe there are core beliefs and worldviews associated with the modern context of being "gay." That would be the basis and reason I use the phrase "gay ideology."
So, let me get this straight... Wanting something to be fair and balanced is an "expectation of gay ideology" now? I should send a memo to Fox News...
Look, if you want to say there is such a thing as "gay ideology," then you need to give a point-by-point list of what it entails, and then you had better make sure that every gay person adheres to every one of those points. Otherwise, the whole thing falls on its face. That, or you could subcategorize "gay ideology" into many smaller ideologies that could fall under the larger whole (in the same way one could subcategorize Christian ideology). But that would require research and pointed questions about what individuals believe about their sexuality and identity, not just what you've observed in your personal interactions with people
Every gay individual will have a different view of what being gay means to them (although I admit some views will be similar). That should be inconsequential to us. We view homosexual behavior as a sin and homoerotic desires as a temptation to sin, and that's that.
i·de·ol·o·gy
I think its an obvious cultural universal that *any* community of people who identify with one another, on any level, have some sort of communal ideology aside from the personal implementation of their convictions and identity. I don't think I have to outline a complete thorough gay ideology thesis, on a blogpost about my own testimony, in order for others to eaisly understand and relate too.
If there wasn't a gay ideology, "coming out" would have no meaning as being a shared experience. That's just one example. There also wouldn't be any national organizations to represent those who identify as gay. You would have millions of gay individuals and no gay community if there wasn't an underlying gay ideology at some level.
Just as Christian communities and orgs vary ... there are core principles that underlie what it means to be "Christian." Individuals vary. Different gay communities vary. National org's missions and purpose vary ... but I think it is a no-brainer to assert that the gay community has a core ideology that spans the entire community of those who have adopted "gay" as their primary identity.
That said, defining gay ideology thoroughly is a great idea. I am sure that there are plenty of others, who identify as gay or not, who have written about this. It's not a new to me idea and doesn't have to be negative even though I personally reject being "gay" as an identity and an avenue of sexual expression ... for sixteen years now.
<abbr>Brenna Kater, the Ocean Skaters last blog post..The Daily Grind (or Blend) & Green Smoothies 101 on ... http://oceanskater.blogspot.com</abbr>
What IS this "core ideology" of the gay community? Being gay myself, I'd like to know. Surely you can give a brief explanation.
It cannot be encapsulated in a blog comment response. But, using the example above I will try to give brief example for each of the definition's points.
let's go with religious doctrine even though doctrine could mean a lot of things. "God is love and would never condemn my love for my same sex partner." For the non-religious, "my love, while not exactly the same in expression and morality, has the the exact same benefits and equal to heterosexual love personally and with regard to social impact."
so many to choose from but one belief was that 10 percent of the population was gay. From what I understand even gay activists are backing away from that number.
Another myth is that homosexuality has already been proven to be genetic. Scientifically speaking it might be a good hypothesis but farrrrr from a tested theory that produces repeated empirical data necessary before considering something natural law.
The belief, and I consider a myth, that the gay rights movement is synonymous with the civil rights movement of MLK.
Final myth for this comment is that people can't change and to do so is harmful. I know personally that isn't true for everyone including myself.
gay ideology contends if you have same sex attractions you are gay and in order to be content you must accept that as a primary identity attribute and pursue romantic and/or erotic relationships with the same sex. To not identify as gay and pursue gay relationships is considered harmful to yourself and the "gay" community by not "coming out." Whatever your politics, religion or lack of religion you must contend for certain basic socio/political goals. Any deviations from these expectations is met with disapproval, condescension or outright stigmatizing scorn.
Movement: "gay rights." Institutions: HRC, GLAAD, MCC, GLSEN etc ... class (trying to change all relevant public policy to consider being "gay" as a protected class). Large group: "pride" parades give pictures to this.
So, Alex, are you going to contend that the gay identified community, that I have identified with, been in and still in dialog with for 30 years is somehow different than any community past, present or future and not have an ideology?
This assumed ideological basis is pretty basic sociology. In fact, and I am not being flip, I believe I learned that principle (universal communal ideology) in High School when the topic of sociology was brought up in Civics class.
Is it not allowed to even identify a core communal ideology much less challenge it? That is rhetorical of course. I believe that some who identify as gay are as legalistic with their beliefs as any Christian I have met who is legalistic about theirs.
I personally challenged what the gay community was telling me, or assuming, as "fact." I didn't choose to have same sex attractions but I eventually discovered I do have a choice in what I do about them, how I think about myself and what I support in my relationships and community. Identifying as gay and core gay ideology is not the avenue I wanted to pursue and is really no longer an option I even consider.
In the “discovery” metaphor (which is the predominant cultural model, at least in the mainstream media), same-sex attraction is experienced and through a natural process of self-discovery (not always smooth) homosexual orientation and LGBT identity is realized, understood and adopted. Experience – attraction and behavior – and identity/being are collapsed into one complete whole; there is little feeling of “choice” involved, and (often) anyone who doesn’t follow this natural progression is considered to be “in the closet” or in denial. (Many of the comments Wayne Besen has made in his writings assume this worldview.) Yarhouse also noted that if there was a conflict with religious training or conviction, beliefs typically morphed to align with experience.
In the “integration” metaphor, same-sex attraction is not interpreted as a natural (or welcome) progression and the individual chooses how to respond to and integrate these experiences into his/her life. If there was conflict with religious training or conviction, usually, but not always, behavior was modified to align with belief.
In a presentation Yarhouse did for my ministry this spring in Fort Worth, he used some graphics to support his theories (which I don’t remember exactly, so the following figures are an estimate) that showed roughly 6-7% of those surveyed in the US experienced same-sex attraction at some time in their lives. Fewer reported having a homosexual orientation. Fewer still identified as LGBT.
I don’t know what Randy and others mean by “gay ideology.” But I think these two fundamentally different worldviews are at the heart of this and the broader religious and cultural discussions. And I don’t see much in the way of common ground.
Randy, praise God for your anniversary! You’re one of my favorite men of God.
Karen, thank you very much for the helpful comment. I deleted the reference to where you saw the link because of a personal policy of mine to not promote them in any way on my blog ... nothing personal.
LOVE the helpful information though. Thank you. We posted around the same time so I hope my response is helpful. There is only so much one can do in a blog comment.
16 years is a long time...
I liked what you said, "I came out of the closet to discover I was in the wrong house," That's a good one. :)
For me, I had this crazy idea thinking I was the first in nearly 2000 years to have this revelation...that I didn't have to be gay. At the time I was 14 years old.
And that was 16 yrs ago!
But my journey didn't involve a wonderful blissful time of seriouse committment.
Just shortly after my experience with the Lord I saw an interview with John and Anne Paulk on Oprah. It was then I had found out about Exodus and LWO.
My journey included a seriouse conversion in my youth and then even went to Bible College. I came to struggle with the fact that healing and freedom hadn't been coming on my terms and in my time frame and so I decided to say, "well, I tried the Christian life and it's not for me and it didn't work for me,"
When I came back and re-surrendered my life to the Lord I thought back to all my experiences and times with the Lord when He really did show up.
It was 2005 the summer I applied to be a participant in the Living Waters program.
I told myself 2 things...
1. I tried everything but Living Waters (and)
2. Christianity isn't something I try on to see if it fits...
Meaning, I had this revelation that my journey had little to do with God actually removing my same-sex desires and everything to do with God revealing to me who He intended me to be and my journey would be a process of discovering who He created me to be as a woman created in His image.
And well, I guess if God works in me so much where He makes a heterosexual relationship possible I'm open to that. However, I'm quite content single and I've been committed to being single for 11 years now. I don't regret that decision at all!
I've been politely debating a gay Christian on one of my posts. Any comments you could contribute would be welcome.
Thanks for explaining what you mean by "gay ideology." I disagree with several parts, however, and it saddens me that people need to identify with any ideology, whether gay, ex-gay, Christian, or whatever, in order to feel whole and important. I do not fit many of the criteria you mentioned as part of "gay ideology," yet I'm still gay (insofar as "gay" means "homosexual," without any sociopolitical connotations).
Choosing not to have sex with men and choosing not to identify with the gay subculture doesn't change a thing about who I am -- merely what I do. At the end of the day, I will always be homosexual. And people like the gentleman in the video, who have one negative experience with being gay and run for the hills, are just kidding themselves. Just because you had one bad relationship doesn't mean you should or can try to change who you are. I doubt a heterosexual man would say, "The first and only girl I've ever dated turned out to be a lying cheater who just used me for sex. I can only assume that this is what all straight relationships are like, so from now on I'm going to date men." It's silly and, in my opinion, tragic.
Alex, thank you for your opinion but I doubt you honestly think a person's life can be adequately portrayed in a 4 minute nightly news spot.
Speaking on behalf of myself, I was an "out and proud" gay man ... who in my heart was never satisfied even though I said the exact same things you are saying. I challenged everything I believed and knew by placing my faith in Christ and questioning fundamental assumptions. I didn't "run for the hills." I am standing right in front of you unashamed of who I was and am.
I was gay and now I am not. Thousands of others can say the same.
My guess is that this is another example of gay ideology ... you say you "are" and always will be partly (others would say completely) defined by your attractions (as homosexual).
I believe homosexuality is something that might change partly or completley but regardless of my sexual proclivities changing or not changing, they don't define any part of my primary identity or worldview.
Who I am completely changed even though I never envisioned the possibility or what it would look like today. And if my goals stay the same and I abide in Christ, they won't define who I am or how I behave in the future either.
by not having sex with men and not identifying as gay *my* life completely changed for the better. I "changed" and am changing in many ways before, during and after the sexual orientation shifts that have occurred in my life.
I believe that what we do is directly linked with who we think we are and what our goals and vision for the future hold.
I want to express to you how grateful I am that your in the world. Im grateful God has raised you up, set you free, and given you a vision and ministry for the lost. You are such an example to me as a man that also HAD a gay identity. You say what I feel. You have paved the way (as so many others have as well). I too believe God is raising me up for "such a time as this"! I look forward to the days ahead.
THANK YOU MY BROTHER!
PS Why is the YOUTUBE video in this blog not working? Did they make sure it would not work due to the "nature" of the topic?
Jay Schlosser
Jer. 17:7
I am not surprised that it was eventually taken off. A lot of news programs don't like their clips being used on youtube. The MSM is very much money driven and they actually sell those clips (so I have heard.) So, while the reporter was very cool, I am sure the editors are too ... it could very well be that the station caught wind of the clip and asked for it's removal.
Or... sometimes YouTube is just flakey and it will start working again later.
Thank you again for the very nice note.
Why do you say its "tragic" to think someone wants to change their life and choices. It is really no different than someone who has a habit they dont like, a drinking problem, or porn addiction. I have had several of these issues in my own life. Why is it that we can on one side be so "open" and honest - and then when someone wants to make a different way for themselves - choose to walk a different life - a different way of thinking - its tragic?
Why is it that openness/living free cannot be for everyone?
Wasn't trying to be offensive, what the heck?
Not all guys who identify as gay have feminine characteristics. There is a wide spectrum. And the reasons for it are multi-causal. Temperment, how they learned to communicate, possible gender ambivalence or detachment, definition of masculine may be wrong or simply different than yours ... so much. The danger is in reducing a man to his appearance and qualities that irritate instead of seeing him for all that he is.
I know quite a few men that the world would dismiss as "queens" or still "queeny" even if they have turned away from a gay worldview. Some of these men are more of a "man" than their critics.
I had zero definition of what was masculine or not until after I became a Christian and realized that there was a purpose for God creating gender. My feminine characteristics were because I was surrounded with and only communicated with women for the first 9 or so years of my life. Plus, again, I had no counterbalance in a Dad or peers. When I was gay I hyped it up to get attention but now that I am not I can still be a ham but I hope not in a negative way.
I may die with my affectations still around and I am quite ok with it.
I can understand what you're saying, and I was thinking that too. Because they learned these behaviors, they can still have a tendency to act that way even after rejecting a gay lifestyle and identity.