ETC: Everyday Thoughts Collected - Latest Comments in The Three Criteria for Protected Class Status in Civil Rights

Re: The Three Criteria for Protected Class Status in Civil Rights

RThomasETC — Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:02:42 -0000

Thanks for respecting self determination.

Even so, the rest of your post is very mistaken.

Less than 5% (Probably a lot less than that last year) of our budget went to "lobbying efforts." The government allows 501(c)3 organizations like us (and the gay pressure group HRC) up to 15% to do direct lobbying. A vast majority of our time is working with churches, conferences, colleges and Member Ministries. Go look at the Exodus website and tell me when was the last time we had a press release on some public policy issue. It was last May and there were two of them on one subject. There has been a LOT of things we could have commented on public policy-wise and we have not. Also, go and do a round up of all the public policy issues our Ministries have been involved in. It is a very very very small fraction of what we do at the Exodus headquarters and even smaller fraction among our autonomous Member Ministries.

As a matter of fact our biggest news items from 2007 were all on topics of identity, genetics and our church outreach.

Even so, to say that we are "shrill" and only devoted to politics is quite frankly ridiculous. It's only got traction because it is a lie repeated among gay activists almost obsessively. It's called stigmatization (manipulation) and they are pretty good at it.

Even so, just because we are no longer gay does not mean we are no longer citizens or without a voice. That is why I post about public policy here on my private personal blog.

Thanks for leaving a comment.

Re: The Three Criteria for Protected Class Status in Civil Rights

A different David — Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:34:03 -0000

"David, I like you but don’t ever forget we are opponents as long as your blog seeks to undermine my life, twist my words and faith."

Isn't that exactly what Exodus and most other "ex-gay" groups are trying to do? I would have no quarrel with you if your goal was simply to change your life in the direction you feel God is leading you. But it clearly goes far beyond that. There was a time when many "ex-gay" ministries existed to help those who could not reconcile their sexual orientation and their faith. I participated in a couple of them that were run by loving, sensitive people. But now all I see are political organizations claiming to offer help when actually the majority of their time and money is spent attacking every single aspect of the lives of LGBT people. Their voices are shrill and hostile as they parrot the false and/or exagerrated claims made by the far right. Where is the healing, where is God in this? Both sides need to take a step back and change the attitude that theirs is "the only way". Dave

Re: The Three Criteria for Protected Class Status in Civil Rights

RThomasETC — Sat, 26 Jan 2008 11:59:05 -0000

Yes, that would definitely be the current secular definition and context for sexuality and sexual identity outside of romantic desires (not just sexual) and goals in life. And, it also doesn't include potential coping mechanisms and addictions. Heterosexuals struggle with that and I don't see homosexuals being immune to it either.

I again am going to write a more adequate response but I can honestly say that regardless of the temptations (old/new) I was once like you and exclusively homosexual. Now I am not.

More later.

Re: The Three Criteria for Protected Class Status in Civil Rights

Michael Bussee — Sat, 26 Jan 2008 11:45:03 -0000

I will look for the post. It's really a pretty simple thing: As most people understand it:

"Homosexual" or "gay" refer to a person who is not attracted to the opposite sex, but only to their own sex. Yes, I know that some people adopt it as an "identity" and insist they were "born that way" and cannot "change". But I am only speaking of the ATTRACTIONS, whether "wanted" or "unwanted". In 54 years of living, my attractions have always been EXCLUSIVELY towards males. Therefore, I am gay or homosexual.

"Straight" of "heterosexual" would refer to a person whose attractions were exclusively towardsd the opposite sex -- like my parents.

"Bisexual" would refer to a person with BOTH attractions -- even though those attractions may be more strongly "oriented" towards males or females. I have met very few bisexuals whoare "50 -50". You admit sexual, romantic, lustful attractions towards BOTH sexes. In this regard, you and I are very different. I have never lusted towards women. It seems to me that that's what BISEXUAL men do.

Re: The Three Criteria for Protected Class Status in Civil Rights

RThomasETC — Thu, 24 Jan 2008 22:57:21 -0000

Hi again Michael. I will address your questions and assertions in a new post ... sometime soon. We are wrapping up our leadership conference tomorrow and I am not sure when I will get the time to type up something.

Re: The Three Criteria for Protected Class Status in Civil Rights

Michael Bussee — Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:54:17 -0000

Randy, thanks for responding to my question. I know it may be somewhat off-topic of this thread, but I appreciate your willingness to talk with me. You replied:

"Yes I am attracted sexually and romantically towards the opposite sex. Very strongly in fact. Where it is in line with the Creator’s intent I have enjoyed developing relationships and dating women over the years. Where it crosses over into lust… "

Since you openly acknowledge that you are now romantically and sexually attracted to both mena and women -- even to the point of "lusting" after both sexes, wouldn't that mean that you are now bisexual in orientation? Have you always been attracted to both sexes or is attraction to women something new?

By "orientation", I only mean the DIRECTION of the attractions you experience. You seem to acknowledge that the "direction" is not exlcusively heterosexual or homosexual. And, I am not suggesting that "orientation" is a fixed state or identity. To me, "orientation" only means "direction" -- as in "the house is oriented in a North-South direction".

In my own case, I never developed attractions to the opposite sex, so my sexual orientation (the prevailing direction of my attractions) is now and has always been exclusively towards men -- even when I was celibate, mariied heterosexually, "ex-gay" or "former homosexual". I am talking here only of attractions, not behavior. Do you agree that (at least in the sense that most people understand "orientation)that your attractions to both sexes would meet the standard definition of bisexual?

Re: The Three Criteria for Protected Class Status in Civil Rights

pam ferguson — Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:12:04 -0000

Randy,
Thanks for your sincere reply. I'd love to be privy to some more of those discussions....but I probably don't have time, even if that's possible. I'm going to pray that you will be willing to go ahead and bring the dirt and water....it's actually quite freeing when you find yourself in that place where you can just say whatever you really need or mean to say without feeling those feelings you are having when the mud comes your way. One of my friends and I have this little thing we say amongst ourselves...."rise below it". haha! anyway....I'm encouraged that you are at least willing to say that it's something your working on....the blog comments and all. Thanks for talking Randy! :)

much love and grace,
pam

Re: The Three Criteria for Protected Class Status in Civil Rights

RThomasETC — Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:01:09 -0000

Thanks Pam, it is good to see you again and I am glad you have dropped by.

If you noticed since the beginning of the year I have allowed a LOT more to stand than I used too. That is part of what the Lord is helping me to deal with and what I think He used my month off from blogging to "reboot" my thinking on the blog and commenting.

At the same time, my voice is taken seriously by other people who think I am wrong in my conclusions. The crowd you are alluding to are not the whole of public discussion on the issue.

There is a lot of constructive discussions that you all are not aware of. I might get mud thrown at me but I am not going to be the one who brings them the water and dirt.

Re: The Three Criteria for Protected Class Status in Civil Rights

pam ferguson — Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:47:35 -0000

Randy,
I've debated and prayed over whether or not to try and engage you in a conversation. I'd just like to encourage you to let go of your own attempts to defend yourself against what you believe to be traps and tricks from the "other team". It may be that there are God-ordained positives and devil-inspired negatives in either corner. Alan garners a great deal more respect from the "other team" simply because he's at least willing to be open and transparent in spite of what games he may actually believe are being played. He seems to have the good faith in God and the common sense to understand that, in the end, what the "other team" does can't really affect him in the grand scheme of things. I'd like to see you exercise that sort of courage and faith. I realize that you and I may be the only one to see what I've written here. Even that knowledge, that you often don't allow dissenting or critical voices to stand in your comments....is just sad to me...for your sake. I would love to see you come to a place where your voice, and what you have to say, could actually be taken more seriously as part of the nitty gritty discussion that really must happen in order for any sort of positive change to take place. We all get a little mud slung on us now and then....big whoop. I'm praying you hear me with a fresh heart, and I promise to listen to what you say with a fresh heart as well.
love and grace,
pam

Re: The Three Criteria for Protected Class Status in Civil Rights

RThomasETC — Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:06:35 -0000

David, I am sorry about that but I don't know if you all noticed but I upgraded my service and theme last night and so I am trying to catch up with all the settings and the timestamp wasn't set right till the wee hours of the morning. Like my comment that says 6:30 something was on (GMT) time and not Eastern Time (1:30 am.)

So, I think I have answered your questions and I got the time stamp set right. Sorry about that.

Re: The Three Criteria for Protected Class Status in Civil Rights

RThomasETC — Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:59:15 -0000

Randy: Are you now attracted sexually and romantically towards the opposite sex — or do you only have these “temptations” towards men?

Hi Michael, I don't think we have ever met. Thanks for stopping by and commenting.

Yes I am attracted sexually and romantically towards the opposite sex. Very strongly in fact. Where it is in line with the Creator's intent I have enjoyed developing relationships and dating women over the years. Where it crosses over into lust... I have accountability for that. With women I think romantic and sexual attractions can be healthy and not always lead to temptation. With men, it is not my desire to ever be inclined to want a romantic or sexual relationship and so I believe those are temptations which give me an opportunity to self determine my actions and be obedient to my faith.

Today actually my friendships with men are such that I rarely am tempted beyond that. It's not always been like that and I have had seasons of zero temptations in that area for quite a while and seasons where it has been difficult to live out my faith and be obedient to what I believe Christ has called me too.

but here again... we are talking about me and not the point of the post.

Re: The Three Criteria for Protected Class Status in Civil Rights

David Roberts — Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:56:29 -0000

This is very confusing. My comment #23 was in reply to your comment #24. which in turn was your reply to my comment #22, but the timestamp has changed so that it now appears that I posted twice in a row and you replied once. I don't understand how it happened, but could you reply to #23?

Re: The Three Criteria for Protected Class Status in Civil Rights

RThomasETC — Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:52:26 -0000

David, I am singling you out in the sense that you and Emily both come after "me" and my motives and asking me about what I do and if I am willing to do this or that. That has nothing to do with the original post. That is always how folks from your blog come at the issues. You dismiss the case being made because of my personal actions instead of civilly looking at the arguments and offering a response. You want to bait me into saying something you can blog about and I am not going to ally myself with your blogs goals of undermining if not outright destroying my own testimony and beliefs.

I may have to endure mockery but I don't have to empower it.

That is why I take the url out of your comment and why I don't allow trackbacks from your team's blog. It's not oppressive at all. Your links still show up on technorati. People can still find your side of the story quite easily, but this is *my* blog and I am not going to facilitate your goals through it.

David, I like you but don't ever forget we are opponents as long as your blog seeks to undermine my life, twist my words and faith. I deal with issues and you all attack by name even to the point of my physical appearance. I don't feel in any way compelled to reciprocate linkage.

Thanks for allowing my URL on the handful of my comments I left over there but I didn't go looking to see if you had removed them and I don't owe you the same actions in return.

Re: The Three Criteria for Protected Class Status in Civil Rights

Michael Bussee — Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:55:03 -0000

Randy: Are you now attracted sexually and romantically towards the opposite sex -- or do you only have these "temptations" towards men?

Re: The Three Criteria for Protected Class Status in Civil Rights

David Roberts — Wed, 23 Jan 2008 06:22:34 -0000

Randy,

The topic of the post is "The Three Criteria for Protected Class Status in Civil Rights." In a comment above, you said:

Emily, everyone already is protected without ENDA. If something unscrupulous happens there is law and the courts to help settle issues.

And still someone else above asked about "hate crime laws." So I feel you are being someone harsh in singling me out, suggesting that I am "turning the tables" on you. This implies deception where there is none - I assure you I am asking a direct question.

Why do your efforts concerning bias crime laws not focus on repealing them entirely? I would see far more logic in this approach, because there is some consistency to it.

And on a personal note, when you posted for a brief period at XGW, we didn't removed the URL from your name - we allowed others the freedom to visit your blog to read more, or not. While you certainly can remove it, and obviously I don't have to comment on your blog, don't you think that is a bit oppressive?

Re: The Three Criteria for Protected Class Status in Civil Rights

RThomasETC — Wed, 23 Jan 2008 01:43:20 -0000

Because those are two different issues. Every time I have been asked I have said that hate crimes and ENDA are not necessary and constitutionally suspect. However, I do support Civil Rights for groups of people who can prove they need to be added as a protected class.

Which is what this post about. Once again you try to turn the tables on me when the topic of discussion is about how prosperous the gay identified community is and why they can't claim their fight is a Civil Rights issue with any legal (and I believe moral) credibility.

Re: The Three Criteria for Protected Class Status in Civil Rights

David Roberts — Wed, 23 Jan 2008 01:11:05 -0000

Randy said:

Emily, everyone already is protected without ENDA. If something unscrupulous happens there is law and the courts to help settle issues.

I can respect a position which holds that all bias crime laws are extraneous, which seems to be your statement above. However, why do you not actively work for the repeal of all such laws instead of against the inclusion of one group? The only situation which is untenable to both those who agree and disagree with such laws, is the selective exclusion of a certain group.

Are you willing to publicly call for and actively work for the repeal of all bias crime laws?

Re: The Three Criteria for Protected Class Status in Civil Rights

RThomasETC — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:29:42 -0000

Thanks Jay I appreciate your comment very much. You may not be condescending but that is how I perceive it. Forgive me if I misjudged your tone and intent.

Re: The Three Criteria for Protected Class Status in Civil Rights

Jay — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:18:36 -0000

Well, I'm certainly sorry if anything I said came across as condescending. That definitely was not my intention. For crying out loud, the reason I've been blogging these past two years is because of your encouragement when I first said I wanted to start a blog. I'd go so far as to say that you, along with several others, helped convince me that homosexual behavior was a sin... And you know as well as I do that that conviction has greatly influenced my faith since I came to college. I have a ton of respect for you. I just disagree with you on some aspects of this journey that we are both on. Yes, you've been on it longer. I listen to what you have to say with an open and respectful mind.

You said: "I answered forthrightly. I believe that same sex attractions (in a romantic or erotic way) are temptations. If no one is above temptation that would include me. Contextually there isn’t any dodging and quite obvious."

If you had included your definition of "temptation" in your initial reply, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The answer would have been much more clear. Thank you for clarifying now, and again, I hope you're well and keep blogging here. God bless.

Re: The Three Criteria for Protected Class Status in Civil Rights

RThomasETC — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 20:35:08 -0000

Thanks Jay you using the word "dodging" is offensive to me. I answered forthrightly. I believe that same sex attractions (in a romantic or erotic way) are temptations. If no one is above temptation that would include me. Contextually there isn't any dodging and quite obvious.

The part about it not defining me is something I wanted to say ... so I said it.

Temptations are not sin. The Lord was tempted Himself and did not sin. So, same sex attraction might still be a temptation from time to time but that does not mean it dominates my life in anyway that would lead me to think or act in ways that conflict with my faith. Most people want me to limit it to a yes so they can dismiss everything else I say.

Jay, you may think that those are "yes" and "no" but they are only confusing because I refuse to get that simplistic. I am not going to be manipulated into a double bind question. If I say yes, my opponents will say I am still gay, If I say no then they call me a liar. I answered as I saw fit. My answer is forthright but framed the way I want it to be framed, not the culture war double bind question that nobody is really concerned about the answer for.

I have been on this journey almost as long as you have been alive. Young people speak wisdom to me all the time and I love their input. However, more often than not, you come off condescending to me.

Re: The Three Criteria for Protected Class Status in Civil Rights

Jay — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:51:13 -0000

Hey Randy... For one, I'm glad you're back blogging on WordPress! Now I have to change your link on my page for what seems like the 100th time. I hope you stick it out here for a while just so everybody can keep up. :-)

Now, I can't speak for Brian or what type of answer he was looking for when he asked that question. However, the question he asked was a good one and it's something that I'm sure many people have wondered about you (or Alan, or Disputed Mutability, or me, or any other "strugglers" who put themselves out there for the Internet world to see).

I can say that I find your reply to be dodging the question a bit. He wasn't asking if temptations defined who you are. I think it's pretty clear from your testimony that they don't, and that's a good thing in my opinion. He was simply asking what your temptations were. Are you still attracted to men? Are you attracted to women? Those are "yes" or "no" questions. They may be misguided questions, because I think we can agree that the placement of attractions really is not significant when it cmes to salvation. However, it's fine to be clear about these things, and it would be less confusing for everyone if you could simply tell us the things you feel.

It hasn't hurt me so far. :-) Again, hope you're well, and I look forward to seeing more blog posts here.

Re: The Three Criteria for Protected Class Status in Civil Rights

RThomasETC — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:57:18 -0000

What Alan said was that no one is above temptation and I would agree with him. If temptations come they still don't determine who I am or how I behave.My tetimony is linked on my articles page.

Re: The Three Criteria for Protected Class Status in Civil Rights

Brian — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:34:23 -0000

Randy, When you say found your "attractions changed and [your] identity completely transformed" does that mean you no longer have attractions towards men and you now have attractions towards women. I remember reading that Alan still feels attraction to men--not sure what your personal story is.

Re: The Three Criteria for Protected Class Status in Civil Rights

RThomasETC — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:55:02 -0000

Emily, everyone already is protected without ENDA. If something unscrupulous happens there is law and the courts to help settle issues.

Now I know you are testing me. :)

I don't care whether Alan is like what people say he is. He is one of the most masculine godly men I know. Mannerisms and affectations mean very little if anything regarding that.

Re: The Three Criteria for Protected Class Status in Civil Rights

RThomasETC — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:48:27 -0000

Thank you Brady. The lawyers did all the work...I just read through it. :)

You raise interesting questions about all of the other groups of people and the matters have probably all been hashed out in the courts concerning each of your exceptions.

However, I think the case is very clear that no matter what the criteria (3 points or more) the gay identified community to do not make the case for being able to use "civil rights" language credibly.

And again, the gay identified community has legitimate issues that need to be brought to the table of public dialog. Actually the issues are pretty much already served ::: escaping metaphor quickly :::

For example, I think the only way to move forward out of the trap of buzzword legalism is to get to reality ... gay identified people pay taxes and vote. Taxes fuel all aspects of the government. If government stewards that money back to individuals (i.e. Social Security and the like) then we should have a say about how that money is released back to us or to our beneficiaries named in a Will or power of attorney.

That is poorly framed and not fully fleshed out (meaning I don't know if I fully agree with the example argument above). But I think it is much more compelling to me to hear a gay identified person say that they are paying into a system and have a right to speak to that system in how it disburses the resources we provide to it. That is much more plausible to me than when I was watching a news story about two lesbians who have been together for decades, sailing off on their private mini-yacht claiming how they are "oppressed second class citizens" denied their civil rights because they can't have a marriage sanctioned by the state.

But again, I am not going to get to much more detailed than this.