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That's ridiculous. Has Randy never watched day time television? He had to have known he wasn't going into a friendly environment. Was there discussion at Exodus as to whether he should appear on Montel or was that his decision? Whatever, the result made Richard look like the mature and reasoned voice of ex-gays. Yikes!
Richard may not have known that The Daily Show would cut and paste his interview together with Wayne's part, but he had to have known that it's a satiric program. I can't imagine what he thinks going on these shows. If I were his patient, I would be embarassed to be associated with him.
While organizationally, Exodus may not be connected to Richard, when Alan goes on the same show with him it's not unreasonable to group him and Exodus together. Lie down with dogs and you'll get up with fleas.
j.
Just wanted to give you kudos for your even-handed, up-front review of both Richard Cohen and Wayne Besen. Both appear to do more harm than good for the causes they believe in. Thanks for going boldly where most on either side of this issue are afraid to go. Blessings, my brother.
It is important to remember that Exodus did not reject Cohen, but he left Exodus. In Cohen't book, he claims he went to Exodus for healing twice.
The first time, an Exodus leader made a pass at him, so he walked away from your ministry. In his second experience, the leader of his group fell off the wagon and came out of the closet.
If it were not for the failures of Exodus, Cohen would not have become the leading ex-gay healer that he is today.
Also, you make fun of Cohen's methods as bizarre. Yet, you work for an organization that takes away peoples underwear if they are considered too gay. Your organization times people in the bathroom if they are in there too long, afraid they are fiddling. Your group hawks a book that asks adults to snap a rubberband on their wrists when they see a person who turns them on (Consiglio's book). Exodus has sold Satinovers book which suggests Prozac can cure homosexuality.
In other words, Exodus is just a bizarre as Cohen. The only difference is that you have the good PR sense not to put your methods on TV. But if America could see the odd techniques that Exodus supports, you would also be laughed out of the room.
The strange things people must do to convince themselves that they are straight!!
Finally, bashing me does not help your cause. People who see me on TV or read my work know that I am quite mild mannered. Asking them to beleive you instead of their own eyes does not do much to enhance your credibility.
Randy, I wish you well and think you are a nice guy. But, Exodus needs to step up its game. Alan Chambers performance on Montel was nearly as bad as Cohen's on the Daily Show. Alan needs media training and is clearly not ready for Prime Time.
Just wanted to give you kudos for your even-handed, up-front review of both Richard Cohen and Wayne Besen. Both appear to do more harm than good for the causes they believe in. Thanks for going boldly where most on either side of this issue are afraid to go. Blessings, my brother.
It is important to remember that Exodus did not reject Cohen, but he left Exodus. In Cohen't book, he claims he went to Exodus for healing twice.
The first time, an Exodus leader made a pass at him, so he walked away from your ministry. In his second experience, the leader of his group fell off the wagon and came out of the closet.
If it were not for the failures of Exodus, Cohen would not have become the leading ex-gay healer that he is today.
Also, you make fun of Cohen's methods as bizarre. Yet, you work for an organization that takes away peoples underwear if they are considered too gay. Your organization times people in the bathroom if they are in there too long, afraid they are fiddling. Your group hawks a book that asks adults to snap a rubberband on their wrists when they see a person who turns them on (Consiglio's book). Exodus has sold Satinovers book which suggests Prozac can cure homosexuality.
In other words, Exodus is just a bizarre as Cohen. The only difference is that you have the good PR sense not to put your methods on TV. But if America could see the odd techniques that Exodus supports, you would also be laughed out of the room.
The strange things people must do to convince themselves that they are straight!!
Finally, bashing me does not help your cause. People who see me on TV or read my work know that I am quite mild mannered. Asking them to beleive you instead of their own eyes does not do much to enhance your credibility.
Randy, I wish you well and think you are a nice guy. But, Exodus needs to step up its game. Alan Chambers performance on Montel was nearly as bad as Cohen's on the Daily Show. Alan needs media training and is clearly not ready for Prime Time.
Not once, in any group I was ever a direct part of.
But of course you will probably document some strange something out of context to show how someone else did.
I didn't bash you... you are a hateful man when it comes to us. I have plllenty of your old emails and blogposts to prove it. But, I don't want to fight you. I have no reason too.
All that to say you will spin anything to accomplish your goals of trying to destroy the authenticity of our lives. Of course it serves your purposes to try and connect Richard and Exodus where none exist today.
Richard has never been a referral of Exodus. At this rate he never will be. As for Alan, thanks for the advice but I don't think the two can even be compared. Richard went into it knowing what he was getting into, Alan was ambushed. Richard purposefully does sensational things whereas Alan does his level best to get our message out there with humility, honesty and grace.
Thanks for the well wishes, mine rest with you also.
Can you really say that Alan was "ambushed" on Montel's show? I think there is a fair amount of skepticism in the world at large when it comes to ministries like Exodus that espouse the message that "change is possible". Whether it is deserved skepticism or not remains to be seen. However, to walk into any public appearance outside of the conferences that you guys put on and expect that skepticism to not be there would seem to me to not be living in a "real" world.
I didn't come away feeling like Alan was "ambushed." Montel was obviously skeptical of what you guys do. I was a bit surprised to see that Alan was not a little more prepared for that skepticism.
Anyway, I said all of that to say that my personal opinion was that "ambushed" might not be the bet choice of words. I'm sure it was tough on Alan though.
j.
That's ridiculous. Has Randy never watched day time television? He had to have known he wasn't going into a friendly environment. Was there discussion at Exodus as to whether he should appear on Montel or was that his decision? Whatever, the result made Richard look like the mature and reasoned voice of ex-gays. Yikes!
Richard may not have known that The Daily Show would cut and paste his interview together with Wayne's part, but he had to have known that it's a satiric program. I can't imagine what he thinks going on these shows. If I were his patient, I would be embarassed to be associated with him.
While organizationally, Exodus may not be connected to Richard, when Alan goes on the same show with him it's not unreasonable to group him and Exodus together. Lie down with dogs and you'll get up with fleas.
Could you please elaborate? What did Alan think he was getting into?
j.
That's not to say it doesn't happen, but my personal experience tells me if it does happen, it's rare.
I agree with you, Randy, because my experience going through an Exodus ministry was nothing close to what Cohen described on the Daily show (or what Mr. Besen described here).
I was never shamed for my feelings, temptations or even my behavior by those who worked at New Creation Ministries. Rather, I was brought to a deeper understanding about and more mature way of handling feelings and relationships.
That's not to say it doesn't happen, but my personal experience tells me if it does happen, it's rare.
I am so tired of the ridiculous arguments put forth by people like Wayne Besen. (I agree with you, one does not have to look too far to understand that Wayne is a mocker and a very mean spirited person…). They – the gay activists, just don’t get IT, and they will not get IT(change) without their eyes being opened; sad, but true. However, we are to proclaim it for those who will hear.
The issue of change for most people in our ministries is IT – change – IS about a relationship of FAITH in a God whom no one has physically seen, but they KNOW He exists! Our rights to have faith in God are constitutionally protected! THANK GOD! He does exist and He changes hearts and lives!
Change – a different direction in life; turning or the biblical word is repent by BELIEVING… Why is it so difficult and threatening to the gay community? Could it be that there really is a God and they know it? Could it be that there really is only a few, a minority, who will actually follow Christ fully and they hate it? If they only knew who their father was in believing the lie. It is written! It has been foretold! Where? In the Bible! AND OF COURSE there are going to be people who fall back into sin and brokenness! If they only understood the beauty of the Cross of Jesus Christ, but alas that is revealed divinely as well. You have to want it. Could it be that it is very threatening in their brokenness and living in an immoral life as described by the Holy Scriptures? It only takes a 5th grade education to read it in black and white; the Scriptures are CLEAR concerning a condemnation of living in a sinful lifestyle of any kind of sexual impurity. Exodus ministries are about believing in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Gospel and the New Testament are clear about the last days… men will be mockers and lovers of themselves… lovers of pleasure. They will actually acquire teachers, even PhDs who will appeal to their appetites, their DESIRES. I will NOT be afraid to speak the good news, the Biblical truths. I will not be cornered into silence; I MUST continue to proclaim liberty and freedom through Jesus Christ our Lord even if it does seem ridiculous. Freedom and liberty is NEVER without struggle… even if it is an entire life time… SO WHAT! We were never promised a life absent of struggle! Quite the opposite ~ tribulation. I think they are ridiculous to think otherwise and so does God… HE LAUGHS! Now that is a fearful thought!
“If they hated Me they will hate you.” – Jesus Christ. Doesn’t sound like good news, but the final chapter to THE Book is great!
This really is their crisis; it is a crisis of their own FAITH. This really is NOT about having a great amount of faith. It is about having faith to begin. They do not understand, and saying they do understand, they are still blind. You really do have to feel sorry for the many who are believing “THE LIE” – “hath God really said.” (Gen 3, Rom. 1) And they mock HIM, even as they mock us who want to follow Christ fully. There is coming a day when they will become violent, calling bitter – sweet, sweet – bitter and then their sweet revenge will grow to a dark hatred and violence; the very people who preach no to hate and say tolerance!
It is unfortunate that Cohen portrays reparative therapy very goofy. I think he means well. However, it is so strange! The only thing that is remotely close to his touch therapy would be normal holy relational bonding with safe people… this is certainly beneficial to those who are touched deprived or only relate in a sexual ways to touch. This is better in the family or the community in the Church, not in therapy. I still like him; I just wish he would listen to you!
About Montel, no doubt from reading Alan’s blog it was a spiritually and an emotionally negative environment to say the least. Alan Chambers did a great job! (I sure love you guys! You are terrific!) As Exodus ministries we should be reminded to serve / minister to those who WANT help, and turn away those who do not… just like Christ, especially when they are young. I was sad about the young man’s story forced into ministry. I have found it takes YEARS to mature and fully understand root issues, and the anatomy of temptation and sin; there is always time, even if parents are grieving. We must always pray and wait.
Oh! I so wanted to ask the Ms. Abomination Lady on Montel if she has ever had a practice or known of a practice in therapy and/or counseling where there weren’t any complainers? Again, it seems ridiculous, and it was so slighted on Montel, it was so stacked against our view. OF COURSE! You are going to have people who don’t make it or follow Christ, or turn away from destructive homosexual practices or any other life destructive practices for by which someone goes to therapy. There are always going to be critics to ever practice, ministry, church or people care giving institutions! Get a grip gay community… there are those who don’t want to be gay anymore! I left homosexuality 25 years ago! There are many more people out here who have left who never testify! They are living heterosexual lives, going on in life and not looking back… PEOPLE CAN CHANGE WHATEVER THEY WANT TOO, even gender by surgery, so why not homosexuality to heterosexuality. Oh they applaud those who go through gender reassignment, as radical as it is, but condemn and mock those who embrace a change of direction in life to follow God. I thought it was ridiculous of Montel to embrace a practicing prostitute as a legitimate occupation, but scoff at ministries helping those who desire help.
Okay so this was my random rant for the month! I know it was long... will you forgive me?
Well, you let out a lot of information there and I am going to let it stand and not punt you back to your own blog because I think it might generate good discussion.
At the same time,,, I hope you will be accountable to your statements if someone else questions them. You don't have to of course but it isn't like there aren't gay identified people "in the room." I wouldn't be surprised if they are ... ummm ... challenged :) by your comments.
Randy, you look beautiful in the photo! Sounds as if you are well, and that makes me happy.
I really enjoyed your comments on the Cohen Daily Show appearance. The empathy for Richard's bewildering situation radiated through every word.
Nearly spat out my coffee when I read that you had had lunch with Wayne. That is awesome. And it's proof that my friend Mr. Besen *is* and *can be* mild-mannered. And surely Wayne will admit that sometimes he is not. Who among us is all one thing?
Hang out more often. You're both fine men.
Randy, you look beautiful in the photo! Sounds as if you are well, and that makes me happy.
I really enjoyed your comments on the Cohen Daily Show appearance. The empathy for Richard's bewildering situation radiated through every word.
Nearly spat out my coffee when I read that you had had lunch with Wayne. That is awesome. And it's proof that my friend Mr. Besen *is* and *can be* mild-mannered. And surely Wayne will admit that sometimes he is not. Who among us is all one thing?
Hang out more often. You're both fine men.
As for "amused" I will leave that between you and Stephen. As for "empathy" ... are you serious? I am not reading a lot of empathy into my words about Cohen. Maybe there is a definition (application?) of empathy I am not aware of :).
As for hanging out with Wayne, as long as we are talking about anything other than homosexuality, religion, politics or culture ... we get along great!
:)
By empathy, my friend, what I mean is that while you of course do not approve of Richard's methods, you can feel his pain, deserved or not, simply because he is a fellow human and creation of God. That's just my perception. Please correct me if I am wrong. :)
One of these days, I am going to have the most fabulous dinner party with the most interesting people from all walks and the most limited conversation menu (no American Idol, and don't get me started on college basketball either)... but I bet we will still have a great time.
By empathy, my friend, what I mean is that while you of course do not approve of Richard's methods, you can feel his pain, deserved or not, simply because he is a fellow human and creation of God. That's just my perception. Please correct me if I am wrong. :)
One of these days, I am going to have the most fabulous dinner party with the most interesting people from all walks and the most limited conversation menu (no American Idol, and don't get me started on college basketball either)... but I bet we will still have a great time.
You better invite me to the party. Oh...and don't invite any of my stalkers.
Personally, I suspect that the vast majority of those who call themselves "ex-gay" actually have a bisexual orientation with a dominant attraction to the same sex. This means that they find homosexual assignations much more passionate and intriguing, but are still able to function with the opposite sex. Of course, I am only refering to those individuals who are able to maintain an intimate, romantic relationship with a woman. Those who are in sham marriages with next to no sexual contact are simply choosing to be functionally celibate or asexual.
There are MANY, MANY more people with a bisexual orientation than with a bisexual identity. I think a fairly accurate projection could be extrapolated by the frequency of situational homosexuality in prisons. Studies I have seen extimate that as much as 35-40% of the male prison population engage in homosexual liaisons while incarcerated. I believe that the 60-65% who don't, roughly reflect the percentage of men who have a purely heterosexual orientation. They are simply not in the least interested in such encounters and do not find them at all arousing. But I digress.
My main point is that your sexual identity is quite fluid, but your sexual orientation is not. Randy will not be able to point to ANY peer-reviewed, mainstream, scientific study that contends that sexual orientation can be changed. Your sexual behavior can be altered, but not the underlying orientation. Someone with a bisexual orientation can repress their attraction to the same-sex, but it doesn't go away, unless the overall interest in sex begins to wane.
I think it is a shame that people are not given the opportunity to explore their sexuality in a responsible, loving, and honest fashion in our society. I think we would end up with a LOT less divorce, domestic violence, and infidelity if people who would be most fulfilled in a same-sex relationship were allowed to enter into one without fear of discrimination, abuse, and rejection.
As a gay man, I have never been romantically attracted to a woman. To pretend otherwise would be dishonest and to enter into a relationship with a woman under false pretenses would be morally wrong. And to condemn me to a celibate life without the possibility of finding romantic love is cruel and unjust.
Randy you seem like a nice guy. I wish you all the best, though I think that this blog will ultimately only cause emotional pain and confusion for those who have internalized shame concerning their sexual orientation.
God Bless.
Personally, I suspect that the vast majority of those who call themselves "ex-gay" actually have a bisexual orientation with a dominant attraction to the same sex. This means that they find homosexual assignations much more passionate and intriguing, but are still able to function with the opposite sex. Of course, I am only refering to those individuals who are able to maintain an intimate, romantic relationship with a woman. Those who are in sham marriages with next to no sexual contact are simply choosing to be functionally celibate or asexual.
There are MANY, MANY more people with a bisexual orientation than with a bisexual identity. I think a fairly accurate projection could be extrapolated by the frequency of situational homosexuality in prisons. Studies I have seen extimate that as much as 35-40% of the male prison population engage in homosexual liaisons while incarcerated. I believe that the 60-65% who don't, roughly reflect the percentage of men who have a purely heterosexual orientation. They are simply not in the least interested in such encounters and do not find them at all arousing. But I digress.
My main point is that your sexual identity is quite fluid, but your sexual orientation is not. Randy will not be able to point to ANY peer-reviewed, mainstream, scientific study that contends that sexual orientation can be changed. Your sexual behavior can be altered, but not the underlying orientation. Someone with a bisexual orientation can repress their attraction to the same-sex, but it doesn't go away, unless the overall interest in sex begins to wane.
I think it is a shame that people are not given the opportunity to explore their sexuality in a responsible, loving, and honest fashion in our society. I think we would end up with a LOT less divorce, domestic violence, and infidelity if people who would be most fulfilled in a same-sex relationship were allowed to enter into one without fear of discrimination, abuse, and rejection.
As a gay man, I have never been romantically attracted to a woman. To pretend otherwise would be dishonest and to enter into a relationship with a woman under false pretenses would be morally wrong. And to condemn me to a celibate life without the possibility of finding romantic love is cruel and unjust.
Randy you seem like a nice guy. I wish you all the best, though I think that this blog will ultimately only cause emotional pain and confusion for those who have internalized shame concerning their sexual orientation.
God Bless.
I have known me for 38 years 10 months and 23 days now. I have been dealing specifically with *my* identity and sexuality for around 28 years and living life beyond homosexuality for almost 15 years (July.) And after all of that time, questions, re-questioning, hearing "assessments from others" like yours (repeatedly...over and over again.) It is inescapable...
I was 100% gay and homosexuality oriented and now I am 100% not gay and the rare temptation doesn't equate to an "orientation."
People can't seem to handle the fact that I know about as much as a person can know with regard to the arguments and still choose my faith over a pro-gay worldview... still choose to live my life the way I do and call it better than the gay-centric life I used to live.
Thanks for playing Arturo but I think your looking to redefine my testimony to justify your own views.
I'm a Christian and a gay man who lives a celibate life - I fully support those who choose to live a celibate life or who seek to pursue opposite sex-relationships.
I'm a bit confused though - Ex-Gay seems to have so many meannings I guess I don't understand what it DOES mean? Many gay people have been married and fathered children, but they never called themselves ex-gay?
I also many gay people who want to be straight - so much so that they seek therapy or simply marry to prove to themselves or others that they are straight - many times this need comes from being seen as less than manly while growing up - but how do we know for sure someone has actually changed from gay to straight? Wouldn't they technically be called bisexuals?
I'm sorry - I don't mean to open a can of worms on this site - I think we do agree that celibacy is a good thing - I guess, for me, the question is, is orientation change really necessary? Isn't holiness better than just being straight? After all, there are millions of "straight" people who are anything but holy, right?
Thanks for your time
P.S. - I know that Wayne Besen has his own opinions, but lets be honest - even though you deal with the matter pretty even-handedly, there ARE Ex-Gay people who have been very mean-spirited when it comes to this subject.
I'm a Christian and a gay man who lives a celibate life - I fully support those who choose to live a celibate life or who seek to pursue opposite sex-relationships.
I'm a bit confused though - Ex-Gay seems to have so many meannings I guess I don't understand what it DOES mean? Many gay people have been married and fathered children, but they never called themselves ex-gay?
I also many gay people who want to be straight - so much so that they seek therapy or simply marry to prove to themselves or others that they are straight - many times this need comes from being seen as less than manly while growing up - but how do we know for sure someone has actually changed from gay to straight? Wouldn't they technically be called bisexuals?
I'm sorry - I don't mean to open a can of worms on this site - I think we do agree that celibacy is a good thing - I guess, for me, the question is, is orientation change really necessary? Isn't holiness better than just being straight? After all, there are millions of "straight" people who are anything but holy, right?
Thanks for your time
P.S. - I know that Wayne Besen has his own opinions, but lets be honest - even though you deal with the matter pretty even-handedly, there ARE Ex-Gay people who have been very mean-spirited when it comes to this subject.
I have one more thought I'd like to discuss with you. I think we agree, to some extent, on the subject of Christianity and homosexuality. However, even though I have chosen celibacy, I would never call myself ex-gay, mostly because no one can seem to decide on a definition of that word.
I am not pro-gay, and I am not ex-gay. There are many of us who are Christians, who no longer live as a practicing gay people, but have no real place to go because we do not agree with Exodus's politics and we don't agree with the gay lifestyle. I am puzzled why both sides can't live and let live - why both sides seem bent on destroying the other. Why is it that gays and exgays can't have all the benefits that the other does - regardless of your belief on gay marriage, for example, shouldn't gay couples have the rights of marriage, even if we don't call it that. I suppose that is a discussion that could go on for a long time - What I'm trying to get at, is, is it right to force your religious beliefs on others through legislation - which is what happens when gay couples cannot receive the basic rights of couplehood that any straight couple can get simply by going to the Justice of the Peace. Millions of married people probably don't "deserve" the rights of marriage, from an Evangelical perspective, but get them simply because they are straight. My question can be summed up in: Is it ultimately good for society to legislate personal religious views?
I suppose that's enough for tonight - Take care Randy! I'm sure we'll be chatting soon
I have one more thought I'd like to discuss with you. I think we agree, to some extent, on the subject of Christianity and homosexuality. However, even though I have chosen celibacy, I would never call myself ex-gay, mostly because no one can seem to decide on a definition of that word.
I am not pro-gay, and I am not ex-gay. There are many of us who are Christians, who no longer live as a practicing gay people, but have no real place to go because we do not agree with Exodus's politics and we don't agree with the gay lifestyle. I am puzzled why both sides can't live and let live - why both sides seem bent on destroying the other. Why is it that gays and exgays can't have all the benefits that the other does - regardless of your belief on gay marriage, for example, shouldn't gay couples have the rights of marriage, even if we don't call it that. I suppose that is a discussion that could go on for a long time - What I'm trying to get at, is, is it right to force your religious beliefs on others through legislation - which is what happens when gay couples cannot receive the basic rights of couplehood that any straight couple can get simply by going to the Justice of the Peace. Millions of married people probably don't "deserve" the rights of marriage, from an Evangelical perspective, but get them simply because they are straight. My question can be summed up in: Is it ultimately good for society to legislate personal religious views?
I suppose that's enough for tonight - Take care Randy! I'm sure we'll be chatting soon