ETC: Everyday Thoughts Collected - Latest Comments in Wayne Besen, Richard Cohen on The Daily Show

Re: Wayne Besen, Richard Cohen on The Daily Show

Jayhuck — Wed, 25 Apr 2007 03:00:00 -0000

Randy,
I have one more thought I'd like to discuss with you. I think we agree, to some extent, on the subject of Christianity and homosexuality. However, even though I have chosen celibacy, I would never call myself ex-gay, mostly because no one can seem to decide on a definition of that word.
I am not pro-gay, and I am not ex-gay. There are many of us who are Christians, who no longer live as a practicing gay people, but have no real place to go because we do not agree with Exodus's politics and we don't agree with the gay lifestyle. I am puzzled why both sides can't live and let live - why both sides seem bent on destroying the other. Why is it that gays and exgays can't have all the benefits that the other does - regardless of your belief on gay marriage, for example, shouldn't gay couples have the rights of marriage, even if we don't call it that. I suppose that is a discussion that could go on for a long time - What I'm trying to get at, is, is it right to force your religious beliefs on others through legislation - which is what happens when gay couples cannot receive the basic rights of couplehood that any straight couple can get simply by going to the Justice of the Peace. Millions of married people probably don't "deserve" the rights of marriage, from an Evangelical perspective, but get them simply because they are straight. My question can be summed up in: Is it ultimately good for society to legislate personal religious views?
I suppose that's enough for tonight - Take care Randy! I'm sure we'll be chatting soon

Re: Wayne Besen, Richard Cohen on The Daily Show

Jayhuck — Tue, 24 Apr 2007 20:38:02 -0000

Randy,

I have one more thought I'd like to discuss with you. I think we agree, to some extent, on the subject of Christianity and homosexuality. However, even though I have chosen celibacy, I would never call myself ex-gay, mostly because no one can seem to decide on a definition of that word.

I am not pro-gay, and I am not ex-gay. There are many of us who are Christians, who no longer live as a practicing gay people, but have no real place to go because we do not agree with Exodus's politics and we don't agree with the gay lifestyle. I am puzzled why both sides can't live and let live - why both sides seem bent on destroying the other. Why is it that gays and exgays can't have all the benefits that the other does - regardless of your belief on gay marriage, for example, shouldn't gay couples have the rights of marriage, even if we don't call it that. I suppose that is a discussion that could go on for a long time - What I'm trying to get at, is, is it right to force your religious beliefs on others through legislation - which is what happens when gay couples cannot receive the basic rights of couplehood that any straight couple can get simply by going to the Justice of the Peace. Millions of married people probably don't "deserve" the rights of marriage, from an Evangelical perspective, but get them simply because they are straight. My question can be summed up in: Is it ultimately good for society to legislate personal religious views?

I suppose that's enough for tonight - Take care Randy! I'm sure we'll be chatting soon

Re: Wayne Besen, Richard Cohen on The Daily Show

Jayhuck — Tue, 24 Apr 2007 19:57:59 -0000

Randy,

I'm a Christian and a gay man who lives a celibate life - I fully support those who choose to live a celibate life or who seek to pursue opposite sex-relationships.

I'm a bit confused though - Ex-Gay seems to have so many meannings I guess I don't understand what it DOES mean? Many gay people have been married and fathered children, but they never called themselves ex-gay?

I also many gay people who want to be straight - so much so that they seek therapy or simply marry to prove to themselves or others that they are straight - many times this need comes from being seen as less than manly while growing up - but how do we know for sure someone has actually changed from gay to straight? Wouldn't they technically be called bisexuals?

I'm sorry - I don't mean to open a can of worms on this site - I think we do agree that celibacy is a good thing - I guess, for me, the question is, is orientation change really necessary? Isn't holiness better than just being straight? After all, there are millions of "straight" people who are anything but holy, right?

Thanks for your time
P.S. - I know that Wayne Besen has his own opinions, but lets be honest - even though you deal with the matter pretty even-handedly, there ARE Ex-Gay people who have been very mean-spirited when it comes to this subject.

Re: Wayne Besen, Richard Cohen on The Daily Show

Jayhuck — Tue, 24 Apr 2007 03:00:00 -0000

Randy,
I'm a Christian and a gay man who lives a celibate life - I fully support those who choose to live a celibate life or who seek to pursue opposite sex-relationships.
I'm a bit confused though - Ex-Gay seems to have so many meannings I guess I don't understand what it DOES mean? Many gay people have been married and fathered children, but they never called themselves ex-gay?
I also many gay people who want to be straight - so much so that they seek therapy or simply marry to prove to themselves or others that they are straight - many times this need comes from being seen as less than manly while growing up - but how do we know for sure someone has actually changed from gay to straight? Wouldn't they technically be called bisexuals?
I'm sorry - I don't mean to open a can of worms on this site - I think we do agree that celibacy is a good thing - I guess, for me, the question is, is orientation change really necessary? Isn't holiness better than just being straight? After all, there are millions of "straight" people who are anything but holy, right?
Thanks for your time
P.S. - I know that Wayne Besen has his own opinions, but lets be honest - even though you deal with the matter pretty even-handedly, there ARE Ex-Gay people who have been very mean-spirited when it comes to this subject.

Re: Wayne Besen, Richard Cohen on The Daily Show

Randy — Fri, 06 Apr 2007 07:06:58 -0000

Arturo, thanks for the compliments on being sober and rational.

I have known me for 38 years 10 months and 23 days now. I have been dealing specifically with *my* identity and sexuality for around 28 years and living life beyond homosexuality for almost 15 years (July.) And after all of that time, questions, re-questioning, hearing "assessments from others" like yours (repeatedly...over and over again.) It is inescapable...

I was 100% gay and homosexuality oriented and now I am 100% not gay and the rare temptation doesn't equate to an "orientation."

People can't seem to handle the fact that I know about as much as a person can know with regard to the arguments and still choose my faith over a pro-gay worldview... still choose to live my life the way I do and call it better than the gay-centric life I used to live.

Thanks for playing Arturo but I think your looking to redefine my testimony to justify your own views.

Re: Wayne Besen, Richard Cohen on The Daily Show

Arturo3888 — Thu, 05 Apr 2007 19:40:06 -0000

First time visiting an "ex-gay" blog. I find Randy's rhetoric to be relatively sober and rational, though I think he is rather misguided. His talk of "overcoming" homosexuality reveals a fundamental misundertanding about the nature of human sexuality and the difference between sexual identity (how you view yourself and what you call yourself) and sexual orientation (the nonvolitional attraction to and ability to function sexually with the same or opposite sex).

Personally, I suspect that the vast majority of those who call themselves "ex-gay" actually have a bisexual orientation with a dominant attraction to the same sex. This means that they find homosexual assignations much more passionate and intriguing, but are still able to function with the opposite sex. Of course, I am only refering to those individuals who are able to maintain an intimate, romantic relationship with a woman. Those who are in sham marriages with next to no sexual contact are simply choosing to be functionally celibate or asexual.

There are MANY, MANY more people with a bisexual orientation than with a bisexual identity. I think a fairly accurate projection could be extrapolated by the frequency of situational homosexuality in prisons. Studies I have seen extimate that as much as 35-40% of the male prison population engage in homosexual liaisons while incarcerated. I believe that the 60-65% who don't, roughly reflect the percentage of men who have a purely heterosexual orientation. They are simply not in the least interested in such encounters and do not find them at all arousing. But I digress.

My main point is that your sexual identity is quite fluid, but your sexual orientation is not. Randy will not be able to point to ANY peer-reviewed, mainstream, scientific study that contends that sexual orientation can be changed. Your sexual behavior can be altered, but not the underlying orientation. Someone with a bisexual orientation can repress their attraction to the same-sex, but it doesn't go away, unless the overall interest in sex begins to wane.

I think it is a shame that people are not given the opportunity to explore their sexuality in a responsible, loving, and honest fashion in our society. I think we would end up with a LOT less divorce, domestic violence, and infidelity if people who would be most fulfilled in a same-sex relationship were allowed to enter into one without fear of discrimination, abuse, and rejection.

As a gay man, I have never been romantically attracted to a woman. To pretend otherwise would be dishonest and to enter into a relationship with a woman under false pretenses would be morally wrong. And to condemn me to a celibate life without the possibility of finding romantic love is cruel and unjust.

Randy you seem like a nice guy. I wish you all the best, though I think that this blog will ultimately only cause emotional pain and confusion for those who have internalized shame concerning their sexual orientation.

God Bless.

Re: Wayne Besen, Richard Cohen on The Daily Show

Arturo3888 — Thu, 05 Apr 2007 03:00:00 -0000

First time visiting an "ex-gay" blog. I find Randy's rhetoric to be relatively sober and rational, though I think he is rather misguided. His talk of "overcoming" homosexuality reveals a fundamental misundertanding about the nature of human sexuality and the difference between sexual identity (how you view yourself and what you call yourself) and sexual orientation (the nonvolitional attraction to and ability to function sexually with the same or opposite sex).
Personally, I suspect that the vast majority of those who call themselves "ex-gay" actually have a bisexual orientation with a dominant attraction to the same sex. This means that they find homosexual assignations much more passionate and intriguing, but are still able to function with the opposite sex. Of course, I am only refering to those individuals who are able to maintain an intimate, romantic relationship with a woman. Those who are in sham marriages with next to no sexual contact are simply choosing to be functionally celibate or asexual.
There are MANY, MANY more people with a bisexual orientation than with a bisexual identity. I think a fairly accurate projection could be extrapolated by the frequency of situational homosexuality in prisons. Studies I have seen extimate that as much as 35-40% of the male prison population engage in homosexual liaisons while incarcerated. I believe that the 60-65% who don't, roughly reflect the percentage of men who have a purely heterosexual orientation. They are simply not in the least interested in such encounters and do not find them at all arousing. But I digress.
My main point is that your sexual identity is quite fluid, but your sexual orientation is not. Randy will not be able to point to ANY peer-reviewed, mainstream, scientific study that contends that sexual orientation can be changed. Your sexual behavior can be altered, but not the underlying orientation. Someone with a bisexual orientation can repress their attraction to the same-sex, but it doesn't go away, unless the overall interest in sex begins to wane.
I think it is a shame that people are not given the opportunity to explore their sexuality in a responsible, loving, and honest fashion in our society. I think we would end up with a LOT less divorce, domestic violence, and infidelity if people who would be most fulfilled in a same-sex relationship were allowed to enter into one without fear of discrimination, abuse, and rejection.
As a gay man, I have never been romantically attracted to a woman. To pretend otherwise would be dishonest and to enter into a relationship with a woman under false pretenses would be morally wrong. And to condemn me to a celibate life without the possibility of finding romantic love is cruel and unjust.
Randy you seem like a nice guy. I wish you all the best, though I think that this blog will ultimately only cause emotional pain and confusion for those who have internalized shame concerning their sexual orientation.
God Bless.

Re: Wayne Besen, Richard Cohen on The Daily Show

Randy — Wed, 04 Apr 2007 12:39:51 -0000

Natalie I would agree with your statements about Richard but I don't know that I was feeling that when I wrote the post :).

You better invite me to the party. Oh...and don't invite any of my stalkers.

Re: Wayne Besen, Richard Cohen on The Daily Show

Natalie Davis — Wed, 04 Apr 2007 12:00:20 -0000

I have no need to converse with Stephen, only a sincere wish for him to be well.

By empathy, my friend, what I mean is that while you of course do not approve of Richard's methods, you can feel his pain, deserved or not, simply because he is a fellow human and creation of God. That's just my perception. Please correct me if I am wrong. :)

One of these days, I am going to have the most fabulous dinner party with the most interesting people from all walks and the most limited conversation menu (no American Idol, and don't get me started on college basketball either)... but I bet we will still have a great time.

Re: Wayne Besen, Richard Cohen on The Daily Show

Natalie Davis — Wed, 04 Apr 2007 03:00:00 -0000

I have no need to converse with Stephen, only a sincere wish for him to be well.
By empathy, my friend, what I mean is that while you of course do not approve of Richard's methods, you can feel his pain, deserved or not, simply because he is a fellow human and creation of God. That's just my perception. Please correct me if I am wrong. :)
One of these days, I am going to have the most fabulous dinner party with the most interesting people from all walks and the most limited conversation menu (no American Idol, and don't get me started on college basketball either)... but I bet we will still have a great time.

Re: Wayne Besen, Richard Cohen on The Daily Show

Randy — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 10:14:23 -0000

Hi Natalie, as always, it is good to see you. Thank you for being happy for me and the very nice compliment.

As for "amused" I will leave that between you and Stephen. As for "empathy" ... are you serious? I am not reading a lot of empathy into my words about Cohen. Maybe there is a definition (application?) of empathy I am not aware of :).

As for hanging out with Wayne, as long as we are talking about anything other than homosexuality, religion, politics or culture ... we get along great!

:)

Re: Wayne Besen, Richard Cohen on The Daily Show

Natalie Davis — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 05:33:05 -0000

A better word might be... amused. :)

Randy, you look beautiful in the photo! Sounds as if you are well, and that makes me happy.

I really enjoyed your comments on the Cohen Daily Show appearance. The empathy for Richard's bewildering situation radiated through every word.

Nearly spat out my coffee when I read that you had had lunch with Wayne. That is awesome. And it's proof that my friend Mr. Besen *is* and *can be* mild-mannered. And surely Wayne will admit that sometimes he is not. Who among us is all one thing?

Hang out more often. You're both fine men.

Re: Wayne Besen, Richard Cohen on The Daily Show

Natalie Davis — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 03:00:00 -0000

A better word might be... amused. :)
Randy, you look beautiful in the photo! Sounds as if you are well, and that makes me happy.
I really enjoyed your comments on the Cohen Daily Show appearance. The empathy for Richard's bewildering situation radiated through every word.
Nearly spat out my coffee when I read that you had had lunch with Wayne. That is awesome. And it's proof that my friend Mr. Besen *is* and *can be* mild-mannered. And surely Wayne will admit that sometimes he is not. Who among us is all one thing?
Hang out more often. You're both fine men.

Re: Wayne Besen, Richard Cohen on The Daily Show

Randy — Thu, 22 Mar 2007 17:01:16 -0000

Goodness gracious Stephen ::: laugh :::

Well, you let out a lot of information there and I am going to let it stand and not punt you back to your own blog because I think it might generate good discussion.

At the same time,,, I hope you will be accountable to your statements if someone else questions them. You don't have to of course but it isn't like there aren't gay identified people "in the room." I wouldn't be surprised if they are ... ummm ... challenged :) by your comments.

Re: Wayne Besen, Richard Cohen on The Daily Show

Stephen Black — Thu, 22 Mar 2007 15:02:14 -0000

WOW... I guess after looking at the comment... WHICH IS RARE BY ME... one might think... Blog on your own site! LOL! Thank God you are a very patient and kind man!

Re: Wayne Besen, Richard Cohen on The Daily Show

Stephen Black — Thu, 22 Mar 2007 14:48:47 -0000

Hey Randy! I agree with your thoughts completely! AND CAN I JUST RANT A LITTLE HERE? I don’t make it out here often in the blog world, too busy helping people who want help! Okay, so here I go! I want to RANT about Montel, the media buzz this week, Cohen and gay activists who are mockers!

I am so tired of the ridiculous arguments put forth by people like Wayne Besen. (I agree with you, one does not have to look too far to understand that Wayne is a mocker and a very mean spirited person…). They – the gay activists, just don’t get IT, and they will not get IT(change) without their eyes being opened; sad, but true. However, we are to proclaim it for those who will hear.

The issue of change for most people in our ministries is IT – change – IS about a relationship of FAITH in a God whom no one has physically seen, but they KNOW He exists! Our rights to have faith in God are constitutionally protected! THANK GOD! He does exist and He changes hearts and lives!

Change – a different direction in life; turning or the biblical word is repent by BELIEVING… Why is it so difficult and threatening to the gay community? Could it be that there really is a God and they know it? Could it be that there really is only a few, a minority, who will actually follow Christ fully and they hate it? If they only knew who their father was in believing the lie. It is written! It has been foretold! Where? In the Bible! AND OF COURSE there are going to be people who fall back into sin and brokenness! If they only understood the beauty of the Cross of Jesus Christ, but alas that is revealed divinely as well. You have to want it. Could it be that it is very threatening in their brokenness and living in an immoral life as described by the Holy Scriptures? It only takes a 5th grade education to read it in black and white; the Scriptures are CLEAR concerning a condemnation of living in a sinful lifestyle of any kind of sexual impurity. Exodus ministries are about believing in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Gospel and the New Testament are clear about the last days… men will be mockers and lovers of themselves… lovers of pleasure. They will actually acquire teachers, even PhDs who will appeal to their appetites, their DESIRES. I will NOT be afraid to speak the good news, the Biblical truths. I will not be cornered into silence; I MUST continue to proclaim liberty and freedom through Jesus Christ our Lord even if it does seem ridiculous. Freedom and liberty is NEVER without struggle… even if it is an entire life time… SO WHAT! We were never promised a life absent of struggle! Quite the opposite ~ tribulation. I think they are ridiculous to think otherwise and so does God… HE LAUGHS! Now that is a fearful thought!

“If they hated Me they will hate you.” – Jesus Christ. Doesn’t sound like good news, but the final chapter to THE Book is great!

This really is their crisis; it is a crisis of their own FAITH. This really is NOT about having a great amount of faith. It is about having faith to begin. They do not understand, and saying they do understand, they are still blind. You really do have to feel sorry for the many who are believing “THE LIE” – “hath God really said.” (Gen 3, Rom. 1) And they mock HIM, even as they mock us who want to follow Christ fully. There is coming a day when they will become violent, calling bitter – sweet, sweet – bitter and then their sweet revenge will grow to a dark hatred and violence; the very people who preach no to hate and say tolerance!

It is unfortunate that Cohen portrays reparative therapy very goofy. I think he means well. However, it is so strange! The only thing that is remotely close to his touch therapy would be normal holy relational bonding with safe people… this is certainly beneficial to those who are touched deprived or only relate in a sexual ways to touch. This is better in the family or the community in the Church, not in therapy. I still like him; I just wish he would listen to you!

About Montel, no doubt from reading Alan’s blog it was a spiritually and an emotionally negative environment to say the least. Alan Chambers did a great job! (I sure love you guys! You are terrific!) As Exodus ministries we should be reminded to serve / minister to those who WANT help, and turn away those who do not… just like Christ, especially when they are young. I was sad about the young man’s story forced into ministry. I have found it takes YEARS to mature and fully understand root issues, and the anatomy of temptation and sin; there is always time, even if parents are grieving. We must always pray and wait.

Oh! I so wanted to ask the Ms. Abomination Lady on Montel if she has ever had a practice or known of a practice in therapy and/or counseling where there weren’t any complainers? Again, it seems ridiculous, and it was so slighted on Montel, it was so stacked against our view. OF COURSE! You are going to have people who don’t make it or follow Christ, or turn away from destructive homosexual practices or any other life destructive practices for by which someone goes to therapy. There are always going to be critics to ever practice, ministry, church or people care giving institutions! Get a grip gay community… there are those who don’t want to be gay anymore! I left homosexuality 25 years ago! There are many more people out here who have left who never testify! They are living heterosexual lives, going on in life and not looking back… PEOPLE CAN CHANGE WHATEVER THEY WANT TOO, even gender by surgery, so why not homosexuality to heterosexuality. Oh they applaud those who go through gender reassignment, as radical as it is, but condemn and mock those who embrace a change of direction in life to follow God. I thought it was ridiculous of Montel to embrace a practicing prostitute as a legitimate occupation, but scoff at ministries helping those who desire help.

Okay so this was my random rant for the month! I know it was long... will you forgive me?

Re: Wayne Besen, Richard Cohen on The Daily Show

Randy — Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:15:56 -0000

Thank you Mike and Andrew for sharing your thoughts and experiences. You reflect what everyone I know who lives life beyond homosexuality experiences.

Re: Wayne Besen, Richard Cohen on The Daily Show

Andrew — Thu, 22 Mar 2007 07:15:23 -0000

I too have been in several different ex-gay groups, probably seen around 4 therapists in total (I've moved around the country a lot), and not once was I ever told to do anything even remotely close to aything described by Richard Cohen, or by Besen's book. I felt shame in gay affirmative therapy, and lost all of it in reorientation therapy.

That's not to say it doesn't happen, but my personal experience tells me if it does happen, it's rare.

Re: Wayne Besen, Richard Cohen on The Daily Show

Mike Ensley — Thu, 22 Mar 2007 05:45:30 -0000

The Daily Show clip was simultaneously sad and hilarious.

I agree with you, Randy, because my experience going through an Exodus ministry was nothing close to what Cohen described on the Daily show (or what Mr. Besen described here).

I was never shamed for my feelings, temptations or even my behavior by those who worked at New Creation Ministries. Rather, I was brought to a deeper understanding about and more mature way of handling feelings and relationships.

Re: Wayne Besen, Richard Cohen on The Daily Show

Stephen Black — Thu, 22 Mar 2007 03:00:00 -0000

WOW... I guess after looking at the comment... WHICH IS RARE BY ME... one might think... Blog on your own site! LOL! Thank God you are a very patient and kind man!

Re: Wayne Besen, Richard Cohen on The Daily Show

Andrew — Thu, 22 Mar 2007 03:00:00 -0000

I too have been in several different ex-gay groups, probably seen around 4 therapists in total (I've moved around the country a lot), and not once was I ever told to do anything even remotely close to aything described by Richard Cohen, or by Besen's book. I felt shame in gay affirmative therapy, and lost all of it in reorientation therapy.
That's not to say it doesn't happen, but my personal experience tells me if it does happen, it's rare.

Re: Wayne Besen, Richard Cohen on The Daily Show

Randy — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:45:15 -0000

I don't know who is Richard's PR guy. I don't think Richard is a jacka* but I think they did an excellent job of making him look like one.

Re: Wayne Besen, Richard Cohen on The Daily Show

Jonathan — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 11:10:22 -0000

True, and The Daily Show bit was just hilarious! It made Cohen seem like even more of a jacka** than he already seemed. Who is his PR guy anyway?

j.

Re: Wayne Besen, Richard Cohen on The Daily Show

Randy — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:53:16 -0000

Not really, I wasn't there and have only heard reports from those involved. Plus, this thread is about The Daily Show.

Re: Wayne Besen, Richard Cohen on The Daily Show

gordo — Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:45:16 -0000

It was an ambush in that the invitation to participate was presented to him in a totally different context.

Could you please elaborate? What did Alan think he was getting into?